user 43495
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You're not wrong.
CAMRA at it again
- Thread starter MickDundee
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peebee
Out of Control
Sorry lads; my diversion into "Surreal Ale" didn't work for long.
Geesh. I tried to lay out my "trap" as transparently as I could, but you couldn't resist the need to trip it all the same ...
Cheshire Cat
Landlord.
Ale and beer have been interchangeable terms for the last 200 years as ale has been hopped for at least that.
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user 43495
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What trap? The distinction is true. No matter how the language is abused - the term 'ale' almost always is - the facts remain the same. You might as well say calling Wednesday Saturday makes it so, but it doesn't. I am well aware that beer is called ale by many and couldn't really care less. However ale as unhopped and beer with hops remains a fact and it isn't necessary to fall into any traps to understand the difference.
user 43495
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Indeed so but the distinction remains a truism. The abuse of language is nothing new.
Cheshire Cat
Landlord.
Ale hasn't been unhopped for 200 years.
Sadfield
Landlord.
....and Meat used to mean any solid food that wasn't drink. Language changes.
Beer - A starch based fermented beverage.
Ale - Top fermented beer.
Lager - A bottom fermented beer.
Beer - A starch based fermented beverage.
Ale - Top fermented beer.
Lager - A bottom fermented beer.
I'd take beer to be an overriding category of drink, of which ale & lager are subsets amongst others.
An Ankoù
Landlord.
Let's be a little circumspect before making a possibly false distinction between ale and beer. The words often refer to the same thing but come from different linguistic roots: ale from old saxon with cognates in old norse like öl and beer comes to us from old high German. It's more likely that the tribes bringing those words had different brewing traditions but neither necessarily includes or excludes the use of hops. The ale root gives us alum in Latin which refers to bitterness, not necessarily from hops but from any old bittering herbs. The beer root has similarities with Latin influenced languages' word for drink.
I don't think there's an issue of abuse of language here, perhaps practices were different and now have merged, resulting in a merging of the use of the words.
I don't think there's an issue of abuse of language here, perhaps practices were different and now have merged, resulting in a merging of the use of the words.
The difference is; Ale begins with an "A", and beer with a "B".
peebee
Out of Control
Your previous post was more accurate ... "at least that".
Burton Ale was hopped (early 18th century). Darbie Ale pre-dates that (around English Civil War). Actually "Darbie Ale's" existence as a "thing" (ale from Derby) is disputed as many surrounding towns (including Burton) made ale from Derbyshire malt. It was quite something, for even Samuel Pepys mentions it (17th century) and transporting it down to London in them days must have been a momentous task.
There's some stuff from Martyn Cornell about Darbie Ale (ignore the "turns out to be totally bogus" title - that's not referring to Darbie Ale being totally bogus!). @The magistrate will like the bit about "defecated" beer as we've been talking about language changing (or not) with time.
And transporting hops about the country would be equally problematic. "Eric" ("Jim's" forum) dug me out snippets from Coleridge's nine day "Circumcursion" the Western Lake District (1801) mentioning walking through the hop fields of ... Keswick!
A recipe in "Homebrew Classics - Stout and Porter" (Clive La Pensee & Roger Protz) interests me. It's for "Stitch", perhaps the most (in)famous "ale" of recent-ish history. A "Strong Brown Ale" drawn out of the publication "London & Country 1736 section 42". Even given a modern approximated IBU value of "9".
Cheshire Cat
Landlord.
Modern English is a combination of Old English and Norman French.
So Beer or Bier is French and Ale Anglo Saxson
Just like with meat whether you produced it is Saxson or ate it is Norman.
Swine or Pork
Sheep or Mutton
The reason the two languages merged is through the nurses who brought up the Norman children spoke English and so did the children. The first "English " King to speak English as his first language was Henry the forth. However the Last English King was Harold Godwinson.
So Beer or Bier is French and Ale Anglo Saxson
Just like with meat whether you produced it is Saxson or ate it is Norman.
Swine or Pork
Sheep or Mutton
The reason the two languages merged is through the nurses who brought up the Norman children spoke English and so did the children. The first "English " King to speak English as his first language was Henry the forth. However the Last English King was Harold Godwinson.
Sadfield
Landlord.
Right now? or 200 years ago?
Brewnaldo
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Take me back to 21 with my 36 year old brain please. That will be plenty.
Stevieboy
Landlord.
That will outrage the Daily Mail!
CAMRA: Ah yes, we want to be seen as more accommodating to people from differing backgrounds which aren't our core membership; with a view to being a more effective lobbying group to the benefit of our core membership and everyone else.
Arseholes: dOWN wITH ThIS sORT oF tHiNG!!
Arseholes: dOWN wITH ThIS sORT oF tHiNG!!
Sadfield
Landlord.
A bit chilly for picketing the local Wethers with a 'No haze, No gays" placard, in socks and sandles.
ssparks
Active Member
With CAMRA's willingness to embrace diversity and tread in new lands, will they open their hearts to kegs one day?
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