Cider making advice

[lium]

I've made a batch of cider from apples (cookers and eaters) I've sourced from friends. I froze them to buy time and I built a press. I then defrosted them and bashed them up in a bucket. The freezing works really well - they were easy to bash and yielded a lot of juice. I strained the juice through a sieve, although there does still seem to be a bit of floating debris in there! Anyway, I have 20 litres in my brewing bucket (with lid and airlock) and I put camden powder in to sterilise the juice. 24 hours later I put cider yeast in that included yeast nutrient...

There still wasn't much activity after a day - I think my kitchen (where it's kept) is a little cool during the day - maybe 18 degrees, so I warmed the room up a bit last night and I now have it wrapped in a duvet, so hopefully fermentation will kick off properly soon!

I see a lot of cider makers then put their cider in demijohns with airlocks - is there a need to do this? I am hoping to go straight from brewing bucket to glass bottles. I may experiment with a few plastic pop bottles as well as I probably don't have enough suitable glass ones.

I'm thinking a couple of weeks in the bucket and wondering how long before the bottled cider will be drinkable? I will add some sugar for fizz.

 

[Frogbrew]

No problem bottling straight from brewing bucket, I do it often. 2 ltr water bottles also fine to use, many say use sparkling water bottles only but I've used still water bottles with no problem. Keep bottles between 18-22 deg for a few weeks then ready to drink but the longer you can leave the better.

 

[lium]

Someone in a brew shop told me that the gas would eventually escape from plastic bottles after a few months... maybe he was hoping I would buy bottles from them...

 

[phillc]

What are the chances you won't have drunk them after a few months?

I ferment my cider in either a 30 litre brewing bucket, or if I'm experimenting in 10 litre wide mouth glass demijohns.

The most basic process I've used to create decent cider is with Lalvin EC-1118 yeast. This creates a fair amount of krausen, so don't overfill. My juice from apples usually starts with a gravity around 1050 and finishes at 1000, which makes a very dry cider. The fermentation bubbles stopped coming through the airlock after 5-7 days. I usually let it sit in the fermenter for another 1 to 2 weeks. Then straight to glass swing-top bottles. I've also used screw-cap wine bottles if I was short of other bottles. Both seem to work fine. The cider is generally good to drink after 3 weeks of bottle aging. Bottles of 500ml are primed with either sugar tablets or 7 grams of dextrose per bottle.

I used to mess about with transferring to a second fermenter, but I've ended up with so many lacto infections that I've stopped that. Unless you can really keep the oxygen out, then I think it's not worth it. Going from a wide-mouth demijohn to another wide-mouth demijohn just seems to introduce far too much oxygen. Any advantage you might gain from a second ferment is possibly outweighed by the risk of lacto infection if you can't keep all the oxygen out. I also don't batch prime before bottling for the same reason. Instead I used a large syringe to add 20ml of dextrose solution to each bottle, or use the sugar tablets are mentioned before.

Maybe if you like sour things you won't be bothered by the lacto infection

 

[lium]

What are the chances you won't have drunk them after a few months?

I ferment my cider in either a 30 litre brewing bucket, or if I'm experimenting in 10 litre wide mouth glass demijohns.

The most basic process I've used to create decent cider is with Lalvin EC-1118 yeast. This creates a fair amount of krausen, so don't overfill. My juice from apples usually starts with a gravity around 1050 and finishes at 1000, which makes a very dry cider. The fermentation bubbles stopped coming through the airlock after 5-7 days. I usually let it sit in the fermenter for another 1 to 2 weeks. Then straight to glass swing-top bottles. I've also used screw-cap wine bottles if I was short of other bottles. Both seem to work fine. The cider is generally good to drink after 3 weeks of bottle aging. Bottles of 500ml are primed with either sugar tablets or 7 grams of dextrose per bottle.

I used to mess about with transferring to a second fermenter, but I've ended up with so many lacto infections that I've stopped that. Unless you can really keep the oxygen out, then I think it's not worth it. Going from a wide-mouth demijohn to another wide-mouth demijohn just seems to introduce far too much oxygen. Any advantage you might gain from a second ferment is possibly outweighed by the risk of lacto infection if you can't keep all the oxygen out. I also don't batch prime before bottling for the same reason. Instead I used a large syringe to add 20ml of dextrose solution to each bottle, or use the sugar tablets are mentioned before.

Maybe if you like sour things you won't be bothered by the lacto infection

Fair point! It is unlikely that it will be not drunk for several months!

My cider was at 1050 before I pitched the yeast. If it gets to 1000 then that would make it about 6.5%...

 

[freester]

Someone in a brew shop told me that the gas would eventually escape from plastic bottles after a few months... maybe he was hoping I would buy bottles from them...

I think they were. My cheap / easy bottling method is to buy 2l 17p a bottle sparkling water from supermarket. Pour the water away then fill with cider + sugar for carbonating. I've got a couple of bottles left from last autumn. They are still pressurised!

 

[lium]

I think they were. My cheap / easy bottling method is to buy 2l 17p a bottle sparkling water from supermarket. Pour the water away then fill with cider + sugar for carbonating. I've got a couple of bottles left from last autumn. They are still pressurised!

Exactly! I'm sure supermarkets wouldn't use these bottles if the CO2 leaked out of them after a few months! So I might be drinking a lot of fizzy water this weekend!

One thing that concerns me about my cider is the lack of bubbling from my airlock - maybe my bucket is not very airtight, which is a concern as well. There is no crust on top like in a beer, but there does seem to be a layer of yeast sediment building up in the bottom of the bucket. I may take a hydrometer reading this weekend to see how it's progressing. It seems to be staying at a steady 20 degrees or so.

 

[freester]

There still wasn't much activity after a day - I think my kitchen (where it's kept) is a little cool during the day - maybe 18 degrees, so I warmed the room up a bit last night and I now have it wrapped in a duvet, so hopefully fermentation will kick off properly soon!

Patience! My cider is in the garage averaging 5-10 degs right now. One of my ciders took 2 weeks to get started. A cooler slower fermentation gives better cider (allegedly).

I see a lot of cider makers then put their cider in demijohns with airlocks - is there a need to do this? I am hoping to go straight from brewing bucket to glass bottles. I may experiment with a few plastic pop bottles as well as I probably don't have enough suitable glass ones.

Most people put in a secondary container just to settle out some of the sediment / yeast. No problem going straight to bottle - all it means is there may be more sediment in the bottom of the bottle than if you let it settle a bit between ferment and bottling. If you want clear cider pour with care! That's all.

I'm thinking a couple of weeks in the bucket and wondering how long before the bottled cider will be drinkable? I will add some sugar for fizz.

As soon as the cider is down to 1.000 on the hydro or stops decreasing you can move it. Once bottled with some carbonating sugar or drops bring it into the warm for 2 weeks to fizz up. It's drinkable immediately but gets better the longer you leave it. There is a fabled malolactic fermentation that occurs in the spring as the air and cider warms back up - this takes some of the 'youngness / tartness' off the cider.

The old cider makers used to say 'don't drink it until you hear the first cuckoo'. The malolactic ferment is the science behind this saying.

I can definitely confirm it's better if you can wait until the following spring.

 

[freester]

One thing that concerns me about my cider is the lack of bubbling from my airlock - maybe my bucket is not very airtight,

Almost definitely that. Very rarely any kind of crust with cider especially if you've campden'd then added yeast 24 hours later. Put your ear up to the bucket? Can you hear it fizzing?

 

[Mavroz]

Almost definitely that. Very rarely any kind of crust with cider especially if you've campden'd then added yeast 24 hours later. Put your ear up to the bucket? Can you hear it fizzing?

I listened to my FV when my last Cider was fermenting, I didn't hear any bubbles or fizzing unfortunately... All I could hear is a very feint "drink me, pleeease drink me". Strange to hear that. Thinking about it, it may not have been the Cider making the sound aafterall???

 

[freester]

I listened to my FV when my last Cider was fermenting, I didn't hear any bubbles or fizzing unfortunately... All I could hear is a very feint "drink me, pleeease drink me". Strange to hear that. Thinking about it, it may not have been the Cider making the sound aafterall???

My cider says the same things to me most of the time.

 

[phillc]

I think they were. My cheap / easy bottling method is to buy 2l 17p a bottle sparkling water from supermarket. Pour the water away then fill with cider + sugar for carbonating. I've got a couple of bottles left from last autumn. They are still pressurised!

Instead you could buy still spring water, don't pour the water away (or even worse, drink it!), rather it could be used as the base for a nice mead. Just add honey.

 

[phillc]

Almost definitely that. Very rarely any kind of crust with cider especially if you've campden'd then added yeast 24 hours later. Put your ear up to the bucket? Can you hear it fizzing?

I think it depends somewhat on the yeast (although I don't use campden so maybe that has something to do with it). When I use a Lalvin EC-1118 I do see a nice, big foamy head of krausen. However, using something like Safale S-04 or T-58, I hardly have any krausen. Usually I can see clear bubbles of CO2 forming on the top, or even just very tiny bubbles agitating against the side of the fermenting vessel. Even if there are no bubbles out the airlock, which happens often when I specifically use some glass demijohns I picked up in Ukraine (I guess the seals are generally bad for some reason) I can still smell fermentation in progress.

 

[phillc]

A couple of picture I had on my phone. Some lovely krausen on cider using Lalvin EC-1118 yeast.

 

[lium]

I took a hydrometer reading this evening - it's at 1050 - the same as before I pitched the yeast a week ago! Is my fermentation stalled?

I'm thinking of getting more yeast tomorrow, but hydrating it first.

 

[freester]

First post Wednesday, now it's Saturday. Give it time. PATIENCE!

 

[Mavroz]

The cider I am brewing had an SG of 1050 on 7th November, over the last 2 days, Gravity is @ 1002 and steady.
Have no Krausen on the cider, but it went off like a rocket after about 12 hours and blew off hard for 4 or 5 days.
There was a strong sulphur smell but the sample tastes very nice with no aftertaste.
Have added cider finings today and will bottle tomorrow if i have time, if not it will be Wednesday.
Forgot to add, i have the temperature at a constant 18 to 20 degrees when fermenting.

 

[lium]

First post Wednesday, now it's Saturday. Give it time. PATIENCE!

I'm fairly certain my 20L fermentation is stuck. It was barrelled 10 days ago and had camden powder added, then the yeast added 24 hours later. Gravity was 1050 and was still the same last night, even though I pitched another (different) sachet of yeast on Saturday. I tasted the juice and it still tastes like sweet apple juice!

I have another smaller batch of 2L in a demijohn which I didn't use camden powder on - I pasteurised it, kept it in the fridge for a week and then started fermenting it on Saturday - it seems to be going fairly vigorously (haven't taken a hydrometer reading)

I used about a level teaspoon of camden powder per gallon - maybe slightly more, i.e. 5 level teaspoons in 4.5 gallons, so I don't think I've used too much. It's at a steady 20 degrees.

What's the problem? Too much camden? Not enough oxygen? Too acidic? (Not sure how to measure that)

 

[freester]

Woh - level teaspoon per gallon? That's quite a lot. I don't know if the powder is any stronger / weaker than tablets but I go on one crushed tablet per gallon / 4.5 litres. A crushed campden tablet is less than a teaspoon.

That may be the problem. It should have worn out enough by now. Try adding some nutrient if you've got any. If it is too much campden / sulphite than any baddies that might turn the juice will also be killed like the yeast so it won't turn.

 

[lium]

That's how much they told me to use at the home brew shop - I think it says that on the packet as well... the juice doesn't taste like it's gone off so I guess it's done the job! I thought by adding another sachet of yeast on Sunday (7 days after the 1st sachet went in) that it would have kicked off, but no.

Last night I added some of the fermenting juice from the demijohn, added some nutrient and gave it a good stir to oxygenise it and hopefully get rid of any sulphur gas in suspension (I'm no chemist!) in the hope that that would start it off. Will see tonight...

I don't think I can get more yeast until the weekend - unless anyone knows of any shops that sell it in the evenings in Edinburgh!

Doesn't help that the grommet for the airlock is split so I'm not convinced I'm getting an airtight seal, but the hydrometer reading has not budged since day 1...