Closed transfer and bottling - are they mutually exclusive?

[DocAnna]

Hi all, so I'm looking for thoughts and advice.

I really like the idea of NEIPA and similarly highly hopped beers and am looking at investing later this year in a couple of snubnose fermenters to be able to do closed transfers with dry hopping. I was hoping initially to do this without buying a gas cylinder as I feel a bit intimidated by all the gas connections, lines and regulators. I also really quite like bottles, for the variation, for being able to give them to people, and for storage, so not all that keen on moving to kegs and the paraphernalia of an extra keg fridge.

So the question really is about whether there is any point doing a closed transfer and attempting beers like an neipa without going down the keg route? I've read conflicting information on whether bottle conditioning is even possible with this beer type and wondered about whether there'd be enough CO2 generated after the dry hop to carbonate it in the fermenter?

Anna

 

[DocAnna]

A few more thoughts on this. So I'm thinking I could add the priming sugar at the same time as the dry hop, which would scrub any O2 introduced, or use the second fermenter purged of air through being connected to the first one during primary. Then use a spunding valve set at a pressure that would allow for the CO2 to be absorbed and remain carbonated. The cold crash and bottle at close to 0 deg C to avoid foam, assuming the CO2 released in-between fill and capping would be enough to purge the oxygen from the neck of the bottle?

Anna

 

[Pennine]

you can use this it also purges with co2 before bottling

https://www.thehomebrewcompany.co.uk/blichmann-beergun-with-accessory-kit-p-1448.html
dry hopping is the difficult part.

 

[DocAnna]

you can use this it also purges with co2 before bottling

https://www.thehomebrewcompany.co.uk/blichmann-beergun-with-accessory-kit-p-1448.html
dry hopping is the difficult part.

The problem is the beer gun needs a CO2 cylinder supply which I'm trying to avoid. I was thinking dry hopping could be sorted by adding the priming sugar at the same time. Any oxygen introduced should be quickly consumed by the further fermentation - I think??
Either that or fill another fermenter with CO2 like the balloon method. Add the hops to the empty fermenter which will add a little air, but then closed transfer so v little contact I think.
Anna

 

[Brew_DD2]

I think it's doable, but I ran out of patience trying and went down the kegging route. I appreciate that's not an option for you at the moment. If that changes, then it's not nearly as intimidating as you might think.

Don't sweat the dry-hopping too much. You'll introduce a tiny amount of O2 but it'll blow off. The trouble I had was always bottling day and minimising O2 exposure at this stage. The beer would look and taste fantastic then 2-3 weeks down the line it would turn brown. Very disheartening.

Gash Slugg did a short video on it here. His channel is great as he brews a lot of hop-forward beers and uses the PET fermenters that you're considering.

 

[chillipickle]

I have yet to brew a neipa, nearly all the you tube videos i have watched on brewing neipa's they have dry hopped very early on fermentation.Some 2 and 5 days in, still high krausen.Any air soon gets pushed out the spunding valve.

I know you mention that you dont want a co2 cylinder, but with all the john guest push fittings it is very straight forward and safe.If you do get a snub nose you will need co2 to push the beer out, if doing closed transfers (correct me if im wrong please).

I have done a few closed transfers from snub nose to kegs, so much easier than botttling, and the beer doesnt taste to bad either :)

Slow typing, some great videos gash has done well worth the time to watch, also a couple of nice neipa brews.

 

[Brew_DD2]

As Chilli says, I'm not sure how you'd go about doing closed transfers to bottles without CO2.

 

[Pennine]

also you can make hoppy beers without focusing on minimizing o2. bottle conditioning works just fine. and if you bottle condition you minimize at anyway. add a small amount of camden to help too if you are really worried.

 

[Brew_DD2]

also you can make hoppy beers without focusing on minimizing o2. bottle conditioning works just fine. and if you bottle condition you minimize at anyway. add a small amount of camden to help too if you are really worried.

I'm sorry but I disagree entirely. The type of beer that Anna is talking about is extraordinarily susceptible to oxidation. I lost count of the the number of batches I lost before I realised what the problem was. Expensive mistake.

If you're adding 50g hops at flame-out, and a small dry hop, then of course you'll get away with it. At NEIPA dosing levels; your beer will end up purple/brown.

 

[DocAnna]

As Chilli says, I'm not sure how you'd go about doing closed transfers to bottles without CO2.

I thought if the snub nose was pressurised from the priming sugar addition and remaining fermentation then it could reach the 35 psi that it’s preset for - and be carbonated- which would provide enough pressure even after cold crashing to expel the beer? I’m feeling a bit daft now for thinking it was a way of avoiding a cylinder.

 

[Brew_DD2]

I thought if the snub nose was pressurised from the priming sugar addition and remaining fermentation then it could reach the 35 psi that it’s preset for - and be carbonated- which would provide enough pressure even after cold crashing to expel the beer? I’m feeling a bit daft now for thinking it was a way of avoiding a cylinder.

Not daft at all. I'm not sure I'd want to push it to 35psi tbh. I've not tried it, but I don't know if you'd be able to push the whole batch out with the residual pressure. Someone smarter than me might be able to help with that.

 

[chillipickle]

On the few occasions i have used the snub nose, i kept the fermentation at roughly 10 psi.When it was time to transfer to the keg i kept the snub nose pressurised to 13psi(serving pressure) and slowly let the 13 psi out of the keg.

Once there is atleast 3 or 4 ltrs in the keg i opened the valve up and it take no more than 6 or 7 mins to complete.

Even just hoppy ipa's, doing closed transfers makes a huge difference on flavour and freshness over just bottling straight from a fermentation bucket.

 

[dan125]

So the question really is about whether there is any point doing a closed transfer and attempting beers like an neipa without going down the keg route? I've read conflicting information on whether bottle conditioning is even possible with this beer type and wondered about whether there'd be enough CO2 generated after the dry hop to carbonate it in the fermenter?

Anna

I used to carbonate after dry hopping in my fermentasaurus before bottling some beer direct with a beer gun.
Have brewed lots of neipas and getting better results by keeping the DH shorter and warmer than I was when doing this and bottling from the keg (with a beergun)
Even if it's carbed in the fv you'll want co2 to push it out and keep o2 exposure to a minimum.
I would say invest in a co2 bottle if you want to brew these types of beers.
Having said that I've never tried a bottle conditioned neipa but would be interested to try one and always up for a bottle swap.

 

[Pennine]

I'm sorry but I disagree entirely. The type of beer that Anna is talking about is extraordinarily susceptible to oxidation. I lost count of the the number of batches I lost before I realised what the problem was. Expensive mistake.

If you're adding 50g hops at flame-out, and a small dry hop, then of course you'll get away with it. At NEIPA dosing levels; your beer will end up purple/brown.

It's debatable sure, I think it comes down to quantity of hops. I have only experienced noticeable oxidation when dry hopping 10g per liter or more. Usually 5-7g per liter or less it's not an issue at all. And I have never experienced that purple madness some get. Again I am talking about bottle conditioning as I don't often keg neipas but I have in the past and camden helps. Anyway not worth arguing as it isn't relevant to the discussion just another opinion that complicated low oxygen transfers are not absolutely necessary to brew a neipa. In fact I am drinking my oxidized neipa as we speak it's not too bad, that was 100g whirlpool and 100g dry hop in a 10l batch. Also has some c60 which might add to the color.
On that note I did just buy a fermenter king to do these complicated transfers so I am definitely willing to test it out myself.

 

[MickDundee]

It's debatable sure, I think it comes down to quantity of hops. I have only experienced noticeable oxidation when dry hopping 10g per liter or more. Usually 5-7g per liter or less it's not an issue at all. And I have never experienced that purple madness some get. Again I am talking about bottle conditioning as I don't often keg neipas but I have in the past and camden helps. Anyway not worth arguing as it isn't relevant to the discussion just another opinion that complicated low oxygen transfers are not absolutely necessary to brew a neipa. In fact I am drinking my oxidized neipa as we speak it's not too bad, that was 100g whirlpool and 100g dry hop in a 10l batch. Also has some c60 which might add tongue color.
On that note I did just buy a fermenter king to do these complicated transfers so I am definitely willing to test it out myself.

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100g whirlpool and 100g dry hop? Were you making an APA?

 

[Pennine]

100g whirlpool and 100g dry hop? Were you making an APA?

In a 10l batch that's pretty heavy for me, what is the norm these days for neipas?

 

[Braufather]

Is it easy to get the hops back out with the snub nose or fermenter king? Given for neipas they go in early and often multiple times, and should only stay in for a couple of days, how is that managed in a pressure Ferment?

 

[MickDundee]

In a 10l batch that's pretty heavy for me, what is the norm these days for neipas?

I was joking. For a 10L batch that’s probably about right. I was planning on 350-400g for mine at (hopefully) 19L.

 

[Pennine]

I thought if the snub nose was pressurised from the priming sugar addition and remaining fermentation then it could reach the 35 psi that it’s preset for - and be carbonated- which would provide enough pressure even after cold crashing to expel the beer? I’m feeling a bit daft now for thinking it was a way of avoiding a cylinder.

Check @Hazelwood Brewery s set up one of those fermenters/kegs would be able to do what you want I think. Pressure barrels I think they are called.

 

[dan125]

Is it easy to get the hops back out with the snub nose or fermenter king? Given for neipas they go in early and often multiple times, and should only stay in for a couple of days, how is that managed in a pressure Ferment?

I would say O2 avoidance is more important than trying to get multiple DH additions in and out with a neipa. I chuck em all in at the end with maybe a small BT addition at the beginning (which stays in till the end)