Won't plain water un-sanitise it? Am I misunderstanding?
CO2 purging barrels/cornys. How do you do it?
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Yes, you have a point.
Personally I take the view that fresh tap water is pretty much sterile... you pretty much have to choose between sterilising and not rinsing, which will definitely leave a chemical residue of some kind in the keg; or rinsing with fairly-sterile tap water that (IMO) is extremely unlikely to contain any organisms that can grow in finished beer that's pretty low in nutrients and got alcohol in it - choose yer poison :-)
Neither, cos I don't like that method 
I don't want even the tiniest drop of sanitiser in my vessel - I spend a few mins draining it out lol
I don't want even the tiniest drop of sanitiser in my vessel - I spend a few mins draining it out lol
Heh - well OK, for the avoidance of doubt here's what I do:Not water, BEER!
- sanitise and rinse the keg
- fill to the brim with fresh tap water
- expel water using CO2
- fill with beer
- force carb
Sure I completely get that
Mind you, I just did a little experiment:
- dip a dessert spoon in really salty water
- shake really vigorously to get all the water off
- lick the spoon ... still tastes pretty salty
Does it soak in to the metal like it would on a PET vessel?
Supposedly the Fermzilla's are non-permeable. I'm not sure I totally believe that to be fair.
Supposedly the Fermzilla's are non-permeable. I'm not sure I totally believe that to be fair.
Stainless steel spoon is completely non-permeable so it's not soaking in - what is happening is that there is some salt residue left on the spoon even though all the water is 'gone': it's just that you can't see it.
Not much we can do about leftover sanitiser we cant see though - unless we get a pair of microscope glasses
That'll be non-permeable in terms of gas molecules... so for example a rubber balloon goes flat after a few days because the gas sees through; whereas a 'silver' balloon doesn't because it has a very thin layer of aluminium coating the plastic
Yes, we can rinse it off with clean water - once you've done that, the spoon doesn't taste salty any moreNot much we can do about leftover sanitiser we cant see though - unless we get a pair of microscope glasses
Now you're blinding me with science lol.
Yes, we can rinse it off with clean water - once you've done that, the spoon doesn't taste salty any more
In my opinion that's just asking for an infection. I don't agree with you, sorry TETB.
As I said, choose your poison!
Indeed. Each to their own.
If I listened to and followed all the different opinions on here, my brain would be a mush
If I listened to and followed all the different opinions on here, my brain would be a mush
To be completely fair @The-Engineer-That-Brews,
When we first started brewing a few years ago, we used to use VWP, which is a cleaner and steriliser in one.
rather bleachy though so you have to rinse. We didn't use sanitiser at that point because we didn't know any better and never got an infection. It's like cutting out the middleman
Could've been good luck though that we had no issues. Now I like to be on the side of caution and then I know I'm (reasonably) safe.
When we first started brewing a few years ago, we used to use VWP, which is a cleaner and steriliser in one.
rather bleachy though so you have to rinse. We didn't use sanitiser at that point because we didn't know any better and never got an infection. It's like cutting out the middleman
Could've been good luck though that we had no issues. Now I like to be on the side of caution and then I know I'm (reasonably) safe.
Couldn't agree more - and as you say, it's all about being on the side of caution.
One of my wilfe's friends is a microbiologist at Roche labs. She says there are two sides to reducing infection risk: (1) killing existing microbes; and (2) removing all nutrients and water. She says it's pretty much impossible to stop new microbes and spores landing on a surface after you've sterilised it... but if there are no nutrients or water present then they can't grow.
One of my wilfe's friends is a microbiologist at Roche labs. She says there are two sides to reducing infection risk: (1) killing existing microbes; and (2) removing all nutrients and water. She says it's pretty much impossible to stop new microbes and spores landing on a surface after you've sterilised it... but if there are no nutrients or water present then they can't grow.
Sounds reasonable.
This is relevant and reassuring on the impact of starsan/chemsan foam in a keg.. The Impact Star San Foam Has On Beer Character | exBEERiment Results!
Well I found it reassuring anyway. In the real world, I have never noted any concern with the foam or surface residue from no rinse sanitiser. The difference between this and the salt water spoon example is the dilution and taste threshold. Take the same spoon after shaking the salt water off then stir a tall glass of tap water, you may just still taste it but that will be primarily the sodium ions.
Well I found it reassuring anyway. In the real world, I have never noted any concern with the foam or surface residue from no rinse sanitiser. The difference between this and the salt water spoon example is the dilution and taste threshold. Take the same spoon after shaking the salt water off then stir a tall glass of tap water, you may just still taste it but that will be primarily the sodium ions.
https://www.probrewer.com/library/kegs/keg-maintenance/
Just found this (well google did) on tinternet. Interesting to read the commercials, after cleaning and sanitising kegs, rinse the kegs with water or steam and then purge with CO2 prior to filling. Doesn’t say exactly how the purging is done. My guess it would involve squirting loads of CO2 into the kegs to flush out the air.
Just found this (well google did) on tinternet. Interesting to read the commercials, after cleaning and sanitising kegs, rinse the kegs with water or steam and then purge with CO2 prior to filling. Doesn’t say exactly how the purging is done. My guess it would involve squirting loads of CO2 into the kegs to flush out the air.
On the water v starsan issue, as I use King kegs I’d have to make up 6-7 gallons of starsan to fill my barrels to sanitise and then purge. I’d then have to have a 7 gallon container/s to store the starsan for future use. I consider this a PITA so went down the route of using just a gallon (5 litres) of starsan to sanitise including a lot of shaking and swirling. That gets poured out and stored (leaving the foam in the barrel) and the barrel is filled with fresh cold tap water. My view rightly or wrongly is the water that comes out of my kitchen tap is clean and safe as it comes out of the tap so getting it in a barrel and sealing it with no or very few air bubbles has got to be very low risk. Pushing (or in my case sucking) the water out PDQ and replacing it with fermentation gas (CO2) must reduce the risk even more. Then doing a closed transfer from fermenter to keg immediately has got to reduce the risks to an acceptable level.
I think to flush the air from an empty keg would require high pressure supply of gas to mix with air and then exhaust. Sorry, I’m not convinced with a “slow” trickle flush
I think to flush the air from an empty keg would require high pressure supply of gas to mix with air and then exhaust. Sorry, I’m not convinced with a “slow” trickle flush
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