Does this sound like an infection?

[IainM]

So, at the end of November I racked off an IIPA for bulk conditioning before doing a massive dry hop. I noted in the trial jar a distinctive woody/spicey/musty taste. The beer had fermented as normal, no signs of infection or particularly bad smells, just this unusual taste. I got 81% apparent attenuation using US-05, which didn't concern me. I racked my mind as to what it could be. Now today I bottled a strong stout. Again, the fermentation went just as normal, 80% attenuation with Wilko Gervin, no pellicle or other sign of infection, but in the trial jar was that exact same strong spicey unpleasant taste. It isn't awful, but I wouldn't want to drink a pint with that flavour in it. I've done 36 brews and not tasted anything like it, then get two in a row with this odd flavor. Both brews were with different hops, different yeasts, and different grains. The only commonalities is that they were both strong (> 1.065) and brewed at 18C for 20 days in the same fv. For the stout, I did a partigyle and made a chinook porter in a different fv, which doesn't have the taste at all, and actually tastes fantastic.

Here is what I find strange. My cleaning routine hasn't let me down before. After fermenting I rinse out the fv, wipe it clear with a soft sponge, put a kettle full of boiling water down the sides, and star-san it. Before I brew again, I star san it again, then rinse it with another kettle full of boiling water. Both brews were chilled immediately, aerated and pitched with a healthy dose of yeast (23g for the IIPA and 36g for the stout). If it is an infection, it can't be a slow one, as the taste is right there in the fv after fermenting.

So, my question is, does this sound like an infection, or something that would condition out? Normally I'd wait and see, but I don't want to waste my expensive hops doing massive dry hop on a beer that won't come good.

 

[Lord0]

I'm not experienced but i thought you were not meant to rinse after star san?

 

[dad_of_jon]

So, at the end of November I racked off an IIPA for bulk conditioning before doing a massive dry hop. I noted in the trial jar a distinctive woody/spicey/musty taste. The beer had fermented as normal, no signs of infection or particularly bad smells, just this unusual taste. I got 81% apparent attenuation using US-05, which didn't concern me. I racked my mind as to what it could be. Now today I bottled a strong stout. Again, the fermentation went just as normal, 80% attenuation with Wilko Gervin, no pellicle or other sign of infection, but in the trial jar was that exact same strong spicey unpleasant taste. It isn't awful, but I wouldn't want to drink a pint with that flavour in it. I've done 36 brews and not tasted anything like it, then get two in a row with this odd flavor. Both brews were with different hops, different yeasts, and different grains. The only commonalities is that they were both strong (> 1.065) and brewed at 18C for 20 days in the same fv. For the stout, I did a partigyle and made a chinook porter in a different fv, which doesn't have the taste at all, and actually tastes fantastic.

Here is what I find strange. My cleaning routine hasn't let me down before. After fermenting I rinse out the fv, wipe it clear with a soft sponge, put a kettle full of boiling water down the sides, and star-san it. Before I brew again, I star san it again, then rinse it with another kettle full of boiling water. Both brews were chilled immediately, aerated and pitched with a healthy dose of yeast (23g for the IIPA and 36g for the stout). If it is an infection, it can't be a slow one, as the taste is right there in the fv after fermenting.

So, my question is, does this sound like an infection, or something that would condition out? Normally I'd wait and see, but I don't want to waste my expensive hops doing massive dry hop on a beer that won't come good.

trial jar samples I've found often has a spicy alcohol burn to it but has gone subsequently.

 

[Sozzled]

If you are using cheap FV it might be worth while replacing them with new ones just to rule these out I guess. It might help narrow down the problem.

Of course if you are using the all singing all dancing FV's then this isn't going to be an option :)

 

[DoctorMick]

I'm not experienced but i thought you were not meant to rinse after star san?

I thought that as well.

 

[monkier]

So, at the end of November I racked off an IIPA for bulk conditioning before doing a massive dry hop. I noted in the trial jar a distinctive woody/spicey/musty taste. The beer had fermented as normal, no signs of infection or particularly bad smells, just this unusual taste. I got 81% apparent attenuation using US-05, which didn't concern me. I racked my mind as to what it could be. Now today I bottled a strong stout. Again, the fermentation went just as normal, 80% attenuation with Wilko Gervin, no pellicle or other sign of infection, but in the trial jar was that exact same strong spicey unpleasant taste. It isn't awful, but I wouldn't want to drink a pint with that flavour in it. I've done 36 brews and not tasted anything like it, then get two in a row with this odd flavor. Both brews were with different hops, different yeasts, and different grains. The only commonalities is that they were both strong (> 1.065) and brewed at 18C for 20 days in the same fv. For the stout, I did a partigyle and made a chinook porter in a different fv, which doesn't have the taste at all, and actually tastes fantastic.

Here is what I find strange. My cleaning routine hasn't let me down before. After fermenting I rinse out the fv, wipe it clear with a soft sponge, put a kettle full of boiling water down the sides, and star-san it. Before I brew again, I star san it again, then rinse it with another kettle full of boiling water. Both brews were chilled immediately, aerated and pitched with a healthy dose of yeast (23g for the IIPA and 36g for the stout). If it is an infection, it can't be a slow one, as the taste is right there in the fv after fermenting.

So, my question is, does this sound like an infection, or something that would condition out? Normally I'd wait and see, but I don't want to waste my expensive hops doing massive dry hop on a beer that won't come good.

Did it have a sort of 'puckering' quality to it? Almost like a sourness but not quiet? (i don't think i'm articulating what i want to say well).

Also what it your sparging technique?

 

[IainM]

I'm not experienced but i thought you were not meant to rinse after star san?

I thought that as well.

Sure, you don't have to rinse it, but it doesn't do any harm. It doesn't kill wild yeast, hence the boiling water.

 

[IainM]

trial jar samples I've found often has a spicy alcohol burn to it but has gone subsequently.

This could be it, but it doesn't taste alcoholic/solventy and it doesn't burn. However, the word 'burn' reminds me, both these brews had a lot of black burnt stuff built up on the element.

 

[Brewmarc]

I'm not experienced but i thought you were not meant to rinse after star san?

You don't have to as it is a no rinse sanitizer as long as you have mixed the right solution.
But I really don't see a problem rinsing.

 

[IainM]

Did it have a sort of 'puckering' quality to it? Almost like a sourness but not quiet? (i don't think i'm articulating what i want to say well).

Also what it your sparging technique?

I can see what you're getting at, tannins. These were dunk sparged in a separate fv, but no sourness or astringency. In fact, for the stout I used the later runnings for the chinook porter which tasted fine, and if anything was going to be spoilt by this it would be this.

 

[Ale]

How do you get your sample? Syphon? Tap on the FV? Could it be that is giving the off taste, or even the trial jar itself? Do you wash them as meticulously?

But I expect its the burnt element

 

[Brewmarc]

So, at the end of November I racked off an IIPA for bulk conditioning before doing a massive dry hop. I noted in the trial jar a distinctive woody/spicey/musty taste. The beer had fermented as normal, no signs of infection or particularly bad smells, just this unusual taste. I got 81% apparent attenuation using US-05, which didn't concern me. I racked my mind as to what it could be. Now today I bottled a strong stout. Again, the fermentation went just as normal, 80% attenuation with Wilko Gervin, no pellicle or other sign of infection, but in the trial jar was that exact same strong spicey unpleasant taste. It isn't awful, but I wouldn't want to drink a pint with that flavour in it. I've done 36 brews and not tasted anything like it, then get two in a row with this odd flavor. Both brews were with different hops, different yeasts, and different grains. The only commonalities is that they were both strong (> 1.065) and brewed at 18C for 20 days in the same fv. For the stout, I did a partigyle and made a chinook porter in a different fv, which doesn't have the taste at all, and actually tastes fantastic.

Here is what I find strange. My cleaning routine hasn't let me down before. After fermenting I rinse out the fv, wipe it clear with a soft sponge, put a kettle full of boiling water down the sides, and star-san it. Before I brew again, I star san it again, then rinse it with another kettle full of boiling water. Both brews were chilled immediately, aerated and pitched with a healthy dose of yeast (23g for the IIPA and 36g for the stout). If it is an infection, it can't be a slow one, as the taste is right there in the fv after fermenting.

So, my question is, does this sound like an infection, or something that would condition out? Normally I'd wait and see, but I don't want to waste my expensive hops doing massive dry hop on a beer that won't come good.

Sounds like your sanitation routine is faultless, so my thoughts are it's probably not an infection, I have had beers at the end of primary fermentation which smelt & tasted similar to what you describe it's probably just the raw ingredients coming through in a very young beer, you really do know when you have an infection, the beer is completely undrinkable. Give it time &. I'm sure it will be just fine. :thumb:

 

[IainM]

How do you get your sample? Syphon? Tap on the FV? Could it be that is giving the off taste, or even the trial jar itself? Do you wash them as meticulously?

But I expect its the burnt element

I boil the end of a ladle, then scoop a couple of ladles into into a glass, and fill the trial jar. The stuff from the trial jar and from the glass tastes the same. The burnt element might has something to do with it, but I would've tasted it after taking the OG reading. Unless, of course, the burning creates something which only becomes apparent after fermentation?

 

[ravey]

Sure, you don't have to rinse it, but it doesn't do any harm. It doesn't kill wild yeast, hence the boiling water.

That doesn't kill wild yeast either.

 

[IainM]

That doesn't kill wild yeast either.

Sure it does. Heat is how Pasteurisation work.

 

[Brewmarc]

That doesn't kill wild yeast either.

What does.??

 

[TartanSpecial]

If its an old plastic fermenting vessel , as other say you could replace it, or alternatively give it a good soak in VWP to try to get a deeper sanitization.

 

[Ale]

I boil the end of a ladle, then scoop a couple of ladles into into a glass, and fill the trial jar. The stuff from the trial jar and from the glass tastes the same. The burnt element might has something to do with it, but I would've tasted it after taking the OG reading. Unless, of course, the burning creates something which only becomes apparent after fermentation?

To steralise anything at boiling point takes 30 mins. Putting a bit of water rapidly dropping from boiling point wont do it. It needs a rolling boil for half an hour. If its been wshed but not steralised infections could grow while the beer is fermenting resulting in an off taste. I'm not saying it is, just it could be a possibility. I've got VWP and steralise everything thoroughly before rinsing a few times. And I mean everything, as the solution is there anyway I even chuck in the scissors I cut open the packet of yeast with. I havent tried starsan yet as I can get it locally.

 

[Razor]

That doesn't kill wild yeast either.

Starsan won't kill the wild yeast but the boiling water should.


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[Lord0]

You don't have to as it is a no rinse sanitizer as long as you have mixed the right solution.
But I really don't see a problem rinsing.

Hmmm, the dude in LHBS (Glasgow) said that star san "forms a barrier" and "should not" be rinsed after application