Edward Colston statue case could be sent to appeal court

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Should the four accused have been found guilty?

  • Yes - criminal damage is criminal damage there were other legal ways to get it removed.

  • No - the statue was a hate crime and it was therefore not an offence to remove it.


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Scrattajack

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So Colston made money from the slave trade and then used it to glorify himself through religious guilt. No place for a statue for someone like that in a public place. Plenty of more deserving cases.
 

Clint

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As blunt as it may seem,what happened, happened. We can't turn the clock back or change it. We can only learn and move forward.
Wrong doers and tyrants have existed forever...in remembered history and history documented.
Wasn't Julius Ceasar a complete murderer?
 

Rodcx500z

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e Commons and scrutiny in the Lords, good you would have to wake them up, and gharge them 300 quid for doing it :laugh8: :laugh8:
 

Scrattajack

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As blunt as it may seem,what happened, happened. We can't turn the clock back or change it. We can only learn and move forward.
Wrong doers and tyrants have existed forever...in remembered history and history documented.
Wasn't Julius Ceasar a complete murderer?
Very true, but I'm not sure what you're suggesting here. This was a statue in a public place that didn't represent the opinions of locals. Ideally, it should have been shifted to a museum earlier and replaced with something a bit more worthy. We're not short of statues.
 

Rodcx500z

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BTW there was a big debate about Colston on 5 live and although this has been all about the slave trade he is also well known for stuff that rarely gets mentioned. (but of course this doesn't sell papers)


Colston supported and endowed schools, houses for the poor, almshouses, hospitals and Anglican churches in Bristol, London and elsewhere. His name features widely on Bristol buildings and landmarks.[7][15] Colston used his money and power to promote order in the form of High Anglicanism in the Church of England and oppose Anglican Latitudinarians, Roman Catholics, and dissenter Protestants.[16]

In Bristol, he founded almshouses in King Street and Colstons Almshouses on St Michael's Hill, endowed Queen Elizabeth's Hospital school, and helped found Colston's Hospital, a boarding school which opened in 1710, leaving an endowment to be managed by the Society of Merchant Venturers for its upkeep.[3] He gave money to schools in Temple (one of which went on to become St Mary Redcliffe and Temple School) and other parts of Bristol, and to several churches and the cathedral.[3][17]

David Hughson, writing in 1808, described Colston as "the great benefactor of the city of Bristol, who, in his lifetime, expended more than 70,000L. [£] in charitable institutions",[18] equivalent to £5,581,350 in 2020.[19]
Going off this you would have to just demolish Bristol
 

Flat Foot

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As blunt as it may seem,what happened, happened. We can't turn the clock back or change it. We can only learn and move forward.
Wrong doers and tyrants have existed forever...in remembered history and history documented.
Wasn't Julius Ceasar a complete murderer?
A cry that often goes up is "you can't rewrite history!"

But history is CONSTANTLY being rewritten, that's how it works. And things look different in different contexts.

You're right, in general many historical figures have many sides to them. Even Churchill.

Statues have taken this weird status where they're suddenly sacred, immortal objects.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that the Colston statue belongs in a museum of Bristol, one that can talk about the multi-faceted and fascinating story of the place. And if anything, the marks on it now are just part of that story.
 

Scrattajack

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Going off this you would have to just demolish Bristol
A good point, but as Clint pointed out, we can only learn and move forward, the buildings aren't an obvious memorial to the dirty money that helped to build the city but the statue is.
 

GhostShip

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I'm not sure the jury were properly guided towards concentrating solely on the charge, which was criminal damage. During peacetime, if you throw a rope around a public monument or artwork, pull it to the ground and then roll it into a canal or river, I cannot under any circumstances see how that can be anything other than criminal damage. If the subject's past is a mitigating factor, then we now all have the green light to pull down an awful lot of statues in this country, whether they have connections to the slave trade, have been members of terrorist organisations or even been involved in serious child abuse. A precedent has now been set and I think it's a huge mistake.
 

Flat Foot

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I'm not sure the jury were properly guided towards concentrating solely on the charge, which was criminal damage.
That was the job of the prosecution, and for whatever reason, the jury didn't accept their argument.

During peacetime, if you throw a rope around a public monument or artwork, pull it to the ground and then roll it into a canal or river, I cannot under any circumstances see how that can be anything other than criminal damage.
Worth reading the links I put up earlier

If the subject's past is a mitigating factor, then we now all have the green light to pull down an awful lot of statues in this country, whether they have connections to the slave trade, have been members of terrorist organisations or even been involved in serious child abuse.
No you don't

A precedent has now been set and I think it's a huge mistake.
No precedent has been set, that's not how jury trials work. No lawyer can now tell a jury "you must find not guilty because of this case"
 

moto748

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Juries will sometimes vote with their hearts, regardless of the judge's instructions. As I saw someone mention earlier, the Clive Ponting trial was another example. But that's what happens when you have a jury of ordinary folk. And I wouldn't have it any other way. And I am mightily suspicious of the motives of anyone trying to change trial by jury.
 

Chippy_Tea

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I'm not sure the jury were properly guided towards concentrating solely on the charge, which was criminal damage. During peacetime, if you throw a rope around a public monument or artwork, pull it to the ground and then roll it into a canal or river, I cannot under any circumstances see how that can be anything other than criminal damage. If the subject's past is a mitigating factor, then we now all have the green light to pull down an awful lot of statues in this country, whether they have connections to the slave trade, have been members of terrorist organisations or even been involved in serious child abuse. A precedent has now been set and I think it's a huge mistake.
Spot on GS and this was what the thread was about what happens if someone pulls down a statue tonight because they don't like what it represents.
 

Flat Foot

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You might want to ask a solicitor or barrister if that is the case. You might be surprised by the answer.
 

Flat Foot

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Precedent is set by a judge, not a jury.

The potential irony is if ministers refer the case to the court of appeal and the judge there decides to support the decision, THAT is what sets the precedent in future cases (assuming it is argued that case is broadly similar)


(See hierarchy of courts)

It could very much be "be careful what you wish for" to them.

So I'll say it again - no solicitor in a future trial could currently say to the jury "the Colston 4 were found not guilty, so you must find my client not guilty". The jury would be directed to disregard by the judge.

No different to how if someone is found not guilty of a death by dangerous driving charge we don't assume anyone who kills behind the wheel in future will therefore by not guilty
 

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