Elderberry ‘Porter’ Advice

[Edison]

Hi all,

I’m planning to brew my next beer to use the elderberries and first gold hops from my garden. I’m also trying to only use what malt I have left in the house, so although it may not be a true Porter as such, I’m aiming for something in that ball park. I don’t have a lot of experience with porters so genuinely invite you to point me in the right direction.

19l batch, aiming for around 4.8%, 30 IBU and nice and dark, but still allow any colour from the berries to peek through (even if only in the head).

3.35kg MO (all I have left)
400g Munich
200g Briess Black Prinz (500L but totally debittered, not burnt at all)
150g Crystal 120L
150g Crystal 225L

Bittering with Mosaic FWH
15g First Gold @ 10 mins

240g elderberries @ 10 mins, previously frozen, thawed, simmered for 5 minutes, crushed and strained.

London III yeast (Wyeast 1318)

I also have in the inventory some Aromatic malt and some crystal 77L.

I’m aiming for something malt forward without being cloying, dark but not black, some hop flavour but not excessive and allowing some space for the elderberries to do their thing (I’m guessing raisins/dark fruit etc, not used them before, keeping the skins out to avoid the tannins).

All suggestions welcome!

 

[Edison]

Hello good people, are there any experts out there in the field of dark beers that would like to lend an opinion on this recipe?

 

[Edison]

Anybody..?

 

[matt76]

I can give you a few thoughts.....

I'm gonna get all pompous first and play Devil's advocate and say that's not a porter because you've got no brown malt in there

In my mind at least, porter (London Porter a.k.a. Brown Porter at any rate) is an interplay between brown and dark crystal malts, with some chocolate malt (or chocolate rye malt) to add colour and a bit more complexity.

(And I'm quite expecting to get flamed for that, and we can also re-ignite the what is porter vs. stout if you like too )

You can do a lot worse than look at the Brown Porter in the GH Book, or this one by Josh Weikert - I've made both, and they're both very good.

So where does that leave you, given you're trying to use what you have in stock?

Well there's this other recipe also by JW for a robust porter - I haven't tried it so can't comment but generally his recipes are pretty good. This one is a bit stronger than you're looking for but if you squint a bit you might be able to get somewhere near with what you have (though I suspect the devil is in the detail). There's also this one where he tweaks it to add raspberries which might give you some inspiration for the elderberries. I can't give you any advice on this front as I've never tried adding fruit to my beers.

One other tip - assuming you're using a recipe calculator like Brewer's Friend or similar, an SRM of 20 should be plenty dark enough (very dark brown, garnet highlights when you hold it up to the light) - so don't feel like you need to go nuts with the blackprinz malt.

On a side note, when you get the chance I'd urge you to try your hand a making a regular porter. I think it's an overlooked style but a cracking beer. Fuller's London Porter is also a great example if you get a chance to try it, you should be able to find it in the supermarket. And then there's Baltic Porter which moves things to a whole new level.....

 

[Edison]

@matt76 Thanks for the reply! Yeah, it kinda felt wrong calling it a porter, definitely not traditional, but thought that might be a general direction to aim for rather than a random 'user-upper'!
I've brewed the Smoked Porter from the GH book which was great and I think it may have been a US Robust Porter I saw which used black patent malt an pale rather than brown.
My aim was to use all my remaining MO, the Munich to add more fermetables and some dry maltyness, dark and extra dark crystal for toffee, dry fruit flavours and the Black Prinz (one of my favourites) for colour and roast flavours.
I think I'll dial back on the BP so its not too dark then. Does the crystal look OK? Don't want the Porter too sweet, but I'm not an expert on porters!
Thanks again for weighing in, I appreciate it!

 

[matt76]

Well in that JW Robust Porter recipe he uses 7% crystal 45 and 3.5% black patent malt.

You're bang on 7% with your 300g total crystal malts.

I use 10% dark crystal in mine, but that's balanced against 10% each of brown and chocolate rye malts - but it's not too sweet so I think you're ok.

As I say, just use a recipe calculator to work out how much BP malt - I reckon 20 SRM (or just over) should be plenty dark enough. You probably won't need too much, a little goes a long way.

 

[prog99]

I've had a belgium kreik before that had elderberries in addition to cherries. Could really notice them (they have a sort of cough mixture taste).
Obviously don't know the quantities used as it was commercial.

 

[Edison]

Thanks both, if I understand correctly, BeerSmith is estimating about 29SRM, so perhaps I'll drop the BP down to 100g. Its great stuff for Black IPAs but it imparts much more colour than flavour in small quantities.
I have no experience with elderberries so its going to be an exciting taste sensation. I hope!

 

[peebee]

@Edison: Must say, I was attracted to this post because you put "porter" in quotes. And went on to say:

Yeah, it kinda felt wrong calling it a porter, definitely not traditional, ...

But it quickly deteriorated into discussions on about the (ridiculous) modern American concept of "Porter". Odd really because the Americans have a history of "Porter" almost as old as ours. But today they ignore all that. "English Porter" (Brown Porter?) is given OG 1.040 - 1.052 in the "BJCP 2015 style guide", so the London Porter (OG 1.060) I've brewed for Christmas just happens to be hokum? Odd that it's derived from a Whitbread recipe! The "BJCP 2015 style guide" is for misguided Americans; there ought to be a law preventing it seeing the light of day outside the US.

Too late for GH. And @matt76 can take this as his predicted flaming if he wants.

Crystal (Caramel) malts didn't exist for historical recipes, but the old (18th century) method of making "Brown Malt" probably created some "caramel" malt elements: I certainly included crystal malts creating an emulation of "brown malt" and would say it made a better "porter" than the Whitbread recipe.

Martin Cornell and Ron Pattinson are the writers to follow concerning Porter.

Rant done with, back to the topic:

You pretty much describe this stuff:
Ebulum
But unfortunately I haven't a recipe, but researching this may give you ideas? I love the stuff. Good luck!

 

[Edison]

Yes I had seen that beer, but have never tried it myself. Maybe I just call it a Specialist Fruit Porter and create my own style, saves all the politics huh? Obviously if it comes out delicious it was purely by design!