Extract stout - boiling extract??

[Applesnmore]

I picked up an out of date Black Rock Miners stout.
Browsing forums for inspiration came across the suggestion of adding 1.5kg of LME 1kg Dark brown sugar 21g Nugget at start of 40 minute boil and 14g Cascade at 10 minutes.
The suggestion was to boil the extract, and sugar with water.
My query is why boil the extract.

If you were making an extract kit - empty into fv add 3l boiling water, mix, add dextrose, mix, make up to volume and brew.
Surely if the idea is to add some hoppyness to the brew I could just boil water for 40 minutes adding the hops as schedule.

Boiling extract feels wrong. Is it me or am I missing something?

Advice welcome.

 

[terrym]

If you do extract brewing you boil some of the ME with the hops, to extract bitterness and flavours. In general you don't need to boil all of the extract with the hops. The rest goes into the FV as for making up a kit with extra sugars.
However I'm not sure how you arrived at your quantities of hops but boiling 21g of Nugget for 40 mins at anywhere in the range 10-14% AA will introduce quite a lot of bitterness, plus the small amount from the Cascade, and this will add to that already there from the kit. Stouts are already quite bitter in fact, so the question arises, have you done this kit before so that you can assess that? If you just want to introduce a hop flavour why not make up a hop tea before bottling?
But if you do want to proceed you don't want to boil kit kit can contents, just some of the LME say 750g. The sugar can go straight into the FV along with the kit can and the rest of the LME. I understand the LME is needed for hop isomerisation purposes but others who know more about these things can expand on that, assuming I'm right.

 

[Applesnmore]

Cheers Terry.
Quantities not mine but from the forum thread that reduced the initial suggesed quantities down to these through brewers friend calculations. All beyond my basic knowledge as I am essentially an extract kit brewer..

I haven't done this kit before but threads tend to lead to it being pimped. Equally I have been disappointed with other stout kits (lacking body and bitterness) so willing to play.

Thanks for the sciencey piece. Good to know there could be a reason for boiling hops with LME.

 

[Sandimas]

A couple of other things
- I would boil the hops with the LME not the stout kit as the stout kit is pre-hopped so boiling could affect it
- the stout kit is already pre-hopped / bittered (probably very mildly 15-20 IBU) so you don't want to start from scratch with the boil bittering or you'll end up with a very bitter brew. Your suggested hop boil will add around 23 IBU making a total of 43 IBU which is on the bitter side for a stout but not excessive. If it doubt drop the 40min boil back to 30 or even 20min. Have a look here https://www.brewersfriend.com/2017/05/07/beer-styles-ibu-chart-2017-update/
- make sure you stir well when boiling with LME after you've tipped it in 'cos is can sink and burn on the bottom of the pan.

 

[terrym]

- make sure you stir well when boiling with LME after you've tipped it in 'cos is can sink and burn on the bottom of the pan.

Bring water to the boil. Remove from heat then add LME. Stir until fully mixed in then return to the heat. And that is even more important when using DME.

 

[DavidDetroit]

You can avoid boiling the LME and just make a hop tea with water. Be careful because the water will extract a lot from the hops.

 

[Applesnmore]

Interesting ideas, Thank you.
Like the charts @darrellm
Take the point about stiring/ adding off heat.
Picking up on the thread of hop tea, I was under the belief hop tea was an alternative way of dry hopping - adding the aromatic notes, and that neither added bittering hop notes (unless the tea is boiled).
Am i right in this view?

 

[terrym]

Hop teas are supposed to be more about extracting hop flavours, whilst dry hopping is more about aroma.

 

[MrRook]

You don't have to boil extract. A week ago I bottled a batch of no-boil extract bitter that turned out real good.

 

[terrym]

You don't have to boil extract. A week ago I bottled a batch of no-boil extract bitter that turned out real good.

How does a no-boil extract beer work?

 

[MrRook]

What I did with the bitter was to heat my water to 176f (80c) and thoroughly mix in half the extract. I then put in the hops to steep for 30 minutes. After removing the hops I thoroughly mixed in the remaining extract, chilled the wort and pitched the yeast.
Steeping the hops at 176f (80c) contributed flavor and aroma with very little actual bitterness which is what I wanted for this beer. To get more bitterness I would have upped the steeping temperature to 190f (91c) or more.

 

[terrym]

What I did with the bitter was to heat my water to 176f (80c) and thoroughly mix in half the extract. I then put in the hops to steep for 30 minutes. After removing the hops I thoroughly mixed in the remaining extract, chilled the wort and pitched the yeast.
Steeping the hops at 176f (80c) contributed flavor and aroma with very little actual bitterness which is what I wanted for this beer. To get more bitterness I would have upped the steeping temperature to 190f (91c) or more.

OK. Thanks for explaining

 

[dad_of_jon]

How does a no-boil extract beer work?

I do a reduced boil or no boil at all. the extract has already been subjected to lots of heat to remove some water (LME) or all water DME so should be sanitised enough. The only reason I would boil extract would be for DME where it has been re-packaged. (to ensure it was bacteria, wild yeast free) - some DME i've bought has obviously been re-packaged. hops can be done as mentioned elsewhere as a hop tea.

 

[terrym]

I do a reduced boil or no boil at all. the extract has already been subjected to lots of heat to remove some water (LME) or all water DME so should be sanitised enough. The only reason I would boil extract would be for DME where it has been re-packaged. (to ensure it was bacteria, wild yeast free) - some DME i've bought has obviously been re-packaged. hops can be done as mentioned elsewhere as a hop tea.

Interesting. I fully understand the sanitising and the hop tea/steeping bit but how do you extract significant bitterness from hops when doing an extract only beer. Hasn't there got to be a boil with malt? For example I like my bitters to be, well, bitter.

 

[MrRook]

Interesting. I fully understand the sanitising and the hop tea/steeping bit but how do you extract significant bitterness from hops when doing an extract only beer. Hasn't there got to be a boil with malt? For example I like my bitters to be, well, bitter.

Hop isomerization starts at temperature less than boiling so a steep at 190f (91c) or so will get some IBUs. Maybe not enough for your taste but some.