Flame Out Hops IBU Calculation?

Discussion in 'General Beer Brewing Discussion' started by Saisonator, Nov 18, 2017.

  1. Nov 18, 2017 #1

    Saisonator

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    On Brewers Friend recipe builder, flame out hops are shown to add zero IBU's to the brew.
    I struggle to believe that is the case, so I wondered what percentage of utilisation others use when building a recipe.
     
  2. Nov 18, 2017 #2

    Dutto

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    i don't bother. :thumb:

    I reckon that as it takes an hour or more of vigorous boiling to get the bitterness out of the hops I doubt very much that there will be a great deal more added during the ten or fifteen minutes between "flame-out" and pitching temperature.

    Which is probably why the BF system discounts them for the IBU calculation.
     
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  3. Nov 18, 2017 #3

    Duxuk

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    I have to disagree. Flameout hops do add bitterness, especially if you use pellets. This is just my own experience. I currently cool my wort to 80C before adding flameout hops. This allows me to leave them steeping for half an hour to get the flavour out. If added at 100C and left for half an hour it would add significantly to the bitterness and drive off some of the lighter flavour elements. My recent brews have given me a reliable late hopped flavour, which is just what I want.
     
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  4. Nov 18, 2017 #4

    foxy

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    Definitely does add extra IBU's, have a look at Gordon Strong's Summer Rye recipe (you can Google it) and in that he adds no bittering hops only flame out hops. Being a certified BJCP Grandmaster beer judge he estimates the finished beer to be around 25 IBU. It would be difficult for any recipe building programme to forcast any IBU's which may be added after flame out and I am dissapointed that as home brewers there is no instrument available to us fo measuring the IBU of a finished beer.
     
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  5. Nov 18, 2017 #5

    Ajhutch

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    BeerSmith mobile which I use adds IBUs for steeped hops, but doesn't add additional IBUs for the boil hops to allow for the steep time, so sort of a halfway house.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  6. Nov 19, 2017 #6

    SurfBum808

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    BF and BeerSmith will add zero IBUs for flameout because it is assumed that you will cool the wort to below 175F/80C quickly. If you want a more accurate estimate, use Steep/Whirlpool for the time it takes you to cool below 175F/80C


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  7. Nov 19, 2017 #7

    foxy

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    We will never know if the IBU's forecast will be accurate, there are too many variables, pellets or flowers, freshness, how well they are stored we can only be our own judge, judging our system/method and adjustments we make, just one of those things in brewing where we are not in full control, makes brewing more interesting.:)
     
  8. Nov 19, 2017 #8

    Duxuk

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    I completely agree. It just comes down to experience. I find that cooling immediately to below 80C is the best way to ensure consistency.
     
  9. Nov 19, 2017 #9

    MyQul

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    It cant be that much if you cool the wort below 80C. Whenever I add flameout hops, I cool to <80C then chuck them in the wort which is in the no chill FV. They therefore get left overnight in the wort. I then decanter the wort off the break material (and flameout hops) into a second FV. I've never seen a large spike in percieved bitterness doing this
     
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  10. Nov 19, 2017 #10

    Zephyr259

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    It's an interesting quirk of using a cfc, the wort remains at 90+ c until it gets crashed to 20c. I think this is why my galaxy pale ale came out surprisingly bitter.
     
  11. Nov 19, 2017 #11

    Saisonator

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    You can recirculate back into the boiler to get to 80c very quickly.
     
  12. Nov 20, 2017 #12

    Zephyr259

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    That did occur to me but I wasn't sure how quickly it would work, I'd read folks saying CFCs weren't good at chilling that way. Not sure why, could the wort be affected by getting chilled then heated again?
     
  13. Nov 20, 2017 #13

    BeerCat

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    The cheapskate way to chill to 80c is dump the chiller in at flameout. Preferably sanitised. I have tried this once without infection.
     
  14. Nov 21, 2017 #14

    pms67

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    There is,it’s called a tongue 😉
     
  15. Nov 21, 2017 #15

    Bigcol49

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    Hi!
    Two ideas to put up against the wall to see if anyone shoots:
    1. If late hop additions are left until after the wort has cooled - say below 64C, or even late hopping after fermentation is complete, how will this effect the final beer (flavour, aroma)?
    2. Shouldn't we be concentrating more on the IBU/OG ratio? A malty beer, like a stout, tastes less bitter than, say, an IPA, even though they both may have the same IBU.
     
  16. Nov 21, 2017 #16

    foxy

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    Master of science Peter Wolfe has wrote this thesis on his study of hops, quite a few pages with some interesting findings.
    file:///C:/Users/user/Downloads/Wolfe_thesis.pdf
     
  17. Nov 21, 2017 #17

    Bigcol49

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  18. Nov 21, 2017 #18

    Braufather

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    enter them in as a hop stand instead, most people go for 10% utilisation but various factors will affect that, and as said above enter the time it takes to get to about 70C
     
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  19. Nov 21, 2017 #19

    hamster

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    Agreed with most on here... Flameout/whirlpool hops will definitely impact some additional IBU IF the wort is still above the 80c mark...

    It's generally accepted that any wort below 80c doesn't extract the bitterness from the hop but will still impart its aroma oils.

    I added some additional hops I had lying around when the wort was 90c and the beer came out far more bitter than usual. Didn't help that I added Columbus hops which is high in Alpha Acids either. I've recently done the same with a different recipe but cooled it to 75c before adding them in and whirlpooling. That beer is spot on in term of bitterness to previous brews

    Beersmith can be used to work out all of the above
     

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