Hand pull pumps and balloons!

[Buffers brewery]

I don’t have one myself but have read several threads on the forum regarding this type of tap and the gas set up required to get them to operate. A recent thread on here got my brain diving off at a tangent and landing here!

As I understand it, this “pub-style” tap was intended to be used with casks that were vented to the atmosphere. As the cask would be emptied in a pub setting pretty quickly there were no concerns about oxidation. However, for the homebrewer that’s more of an issue, hence the need for a CO2 feed.....or is it?

I conducted a recent Xbeeriment using a mylar balloon inside a King Keg pressure barrel to pressurise the contents for dispensing. My thinking being mylar is a pretty stable material, can be sanitised easily, and a deflated balloon takes up hardly any space but can be inflated easily to occupy significantly more space. The Xbeeriment was a success(ish).

So my second Xbeeriment was to fill a plastic barrel with water, mod the top to allow the connection of one of my CO2 mylar balloons but have it venting to atmosphere,

sqidge the balloon into the barrel

and tighten the lid down.

Turn the tap on and..

.....no suprise the water flowed out of the tap. Placing a thumb over the balloon vent in the cap quickly brought the flow to a halt indicating the balloon was keeping the pressure inside the barrel at atmospheric.

Conclusion? Any CO2 generated in the barrel during “carbonation” would stay in the barrel (providing there are no leaks) and no additional CO2 would be needed during the consumption of the beer. The only downside the I identified was getting the inflated balloon out of the barrel! Fortunately I had a lilo pump that sucks as well as blow so was able to deflate the balloon to extract it. I’m sure there could be other problems but as I don’t have a hand pull pump I can’t test the idea properly.



Could it be of interest?

 

[cushyno]

Another good investigative piece from Buffer!
I have been wondering about using Mylar balloons inside easy kegs with a Schrader valve as an alternative to using a co2 source. The truck but would be securing the balloon. How did you get a good seal?

 

[DocAnna]

I'm not following this, the ballon will only inflate so far so once it reaches maximum size the beer will have to give up dissolved CO2 to be able to flow out of the keg? That is assuming the volume of beer in the keg will exceed the total volume of the inflated balloon.

 

[Buffers brewery]

I'm not following this, the ballon will only inflate so far so once it reaches maximum size the beer will have to give up dissolved CO2 to be able to flow out of the keg? That is assuming the volume of beer in the keg will exceed the total volume of the inflated balloon.

Yes @DocAnna the balloon would need to have an inflated volume at least the same as the barrel assuming there will be some CO2 over the beer as well (when the balloon is fully deflated). I envisaged it being an option for low pressure plastic barrels. I guess, provided you get the right shaped balloon (not spherical) you could use it with a corny

 

[Buffers brewery]

Another good investigative piece from Buffer!
I have been wondering about using Mylar balloons inside easy kegs with a Schrader valve as an alternative to using a co2 source. The truck but would be securing the balloon. How did you get a good seal?

Hi @cushyno I used one of my CO2 collection balloons that had a short length of 6mm diameter pneumatic hose fitted. Then I used a push fit connector with a 1/4” female BSP thread then a 1/4” BSP nipple into a bulkhead fitting I had in my stash.

I think if I was to make a “breather” assembly, I’d use larger (and shorter) diameter tube (8-10mm) and a compression fitting rather than push-fit as they perform better under vacuum.

 

[cushyno]

Great, thanks for the close-up shot, that's very helpful.

 

[Agentgonzo]

@Buffers brewery . Did you ever use this with beer? I'm wondering about giving it a try... For science, obviously.

I'm wondering how both the beer and Mylar stand up to medium term contact (say a month or two storage before 'tapping' the barrel)

 

[Buffers brewery]

No, didn't try it out in anger. It was just a crazy idea I had reading posts about serving from kegs using beer engines, effectively at atmospheric pressure. I think I'd just attach a balloon of fermentation gas to a PB to serve at atmospheric pressure i.e. just using gravity to pour.
If you want to pressurise your PB with fermentation gas I can think of a complicated way to do it (that's what I do ) but would require a modified PB in addition to the PB with your brew.

 

[An Ankoù]

So. If I understand this correctly, the balloon isn't made to inflate, but rather fills the space left in the barrel as the beer is drawn off. Provided the balloon doesn't contaminate the beer over time, and that a balloon can be found of much the same size and shape as the interior of the barrel, then fair enough.
Have you seen @CD 's Noddy system? CD devised an adapter which would fill a similar balloon with CO2 from the final stages fermentation in the barrel and then feed it back into the barrel as the beer is drawn off. Not as elegant as an internal bladder, perhaps, but much less opportunity for contamination. Well worth looking at somewhere on this forum.

 

[CD]

Have you seen @CD 's Noddy system? CD devised an adapter which would fill a similar balloon with CO2 from the final stages fermentation in the barrel and then feed it back into the barrel as the beer is drawn off. Not as elegant as an internal bladder, perhaps, but much less opportunity for contamination. Well worth looking at somewhere on this forum.

You might be interested in the thread 'Draught Beer', which I started on March 27th 2019.

 

[Stan's Brew]

It's not just the price of CO2 but also the availability, or lack of. I purge kegs and fermenters and carbonate using pressure brewing, but i'm sure I could make a CO2 bottle last years if I wasn't using it for transferring and tap serving and used a pump like this flojet instead:

https://www.xylem.com/en-uk/brands/flojet/flojet-products/g56-beerjet/
Anyone used one of these pumps ?

 

[peebee]

... Anyone used one of these pumps ?

But the price of them ! They move lots of beer considerable distances, but we don't need that as homebrewers. What they don't do is replace the beer leaving the container with anything "safe" (like CO2).

I transfer beer (not serve beer) with food-safe "diaphragm pumps" (about £15-30, "Seaflo" do a range of drinking water pumps that should be safe?) if that's helpful. Noisy, but quite gentle on beer (unlike pumps with whirry paddly bits in 'em).

 

[Buffers brewery]

if I wasn't using it for transferring

I don't understand why you need pressurised CO2 to transfer (presumably from fermenter to keg)? I do closed transfer just using gravity. Takes a bit of time, about 30 minutes for 5 gallons, but it works.

 

[Stan's Brew]

I pressure transfer carbonated beer from fermenter a to keg in the serving fridge to avoid having to lift 30 and 60+Kg of liquid, both vessels are on the level, gravity gets so far before having to complete using pressure, the receiving vessel is spunded for flow control to prevent foaming.

The seaflow's look interesting, can they handle carbonated beer?

 

[Buffers brewery]

I pressure transfer carbonated beer from fermenter a to keg in the serving fridge to avoid having to lift 30 and 60+Kg of liquid, both vessels are on the level, gravity gets so far before having to complete using pressure, the receiving vessel is spunded for flow control to prevent foaming.

The seaflow's look interesting, can they handle carbonated beer?

OK, I understand . I have my keg on the floor and FV in my brew fridge that is on a table so gravity works.

Just about to post an update on one of my "bright" ideas. Good for a laugh

 

[peebee]

... The seaflow's look interesting, can they handle carbonated beer?

Not tried them with any significantly carbonated beer, only newly fermented beer from the fermenter to keg (all newly fermented beer is carbonated - saturated with CO2 at atmospheric pressure, about 0.85 to 0.90 volumes - where it will stay if no other gas comes in contact or the pressure changes).

But previously used an "open" impeller type pump which broke out CO2 in solution creating froth and making kegging a right pain. The diaphragm pumps create no froth, and the kegs are filled to the top in one go. The pumps do shift liquid a little slower than impeller pumps, but not by much.

Magnetic drive Impeller pumps are not always as sanitary as I thought either (especially the small ones).

 

[Stan's Brew]

Not tried them with any significantly carbonated beer, only newly fermented beer from the fermenter to keg (all newly fermented beer is carbonated - saturated with CO2 at atmospheric pressure, about 0.85 to 0.90 volumes - where it will stay if no other gas comes in contact or the pressure changes).

But previously used an "open" impeller type pump which broke out CO2 in solution creating froth and making kegging a right pain. The diaphragm pumps create no froth, and the kegs are filled to the top in one go. The pumps do shift liquid a little slower than impeller pumps, but not by much.

Magnetic drive Impeller pumps are not always as sanitary as I thought either (especially the small ones).

Thanks - which model pump are you using?

 

[peebee]

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01MTNBHPT
I was a bit optimistic saying £15-30. Very much at the top end of that range! Very high pressure if you let them be so don't have taps or anything other than switching off the pump to stop flow or it will burst plastic pipes! They fill a Corny keg in 5-10 minutes, all pressure, less so flow rate, use two or more in parallel if you need more flow (or get the multi-chambered models). They are good to 50-60C but you can get one from Canada that can do 100C (very expensive, but intended for beer brewing - tried looking them up but "Nothern Brewer" in US are on to it with a cheaper model like the Seaflo which they inconveniently also call "anti-gravity").

 

[Stan's Brew]

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01MTNBHPT
I was a bit optimistic saying £15-30. Very much at the top end of that range! Very high pressure if you let them be so don't have taps or anything other than switching off the pump to stop flow or it will burst plastic pipes! They fill a Corny keg in 5-10 minutes, all pressure, less so flow rate, use two or more in parallel if you need more flow (or get the multi-chambered models). They are good to 50-60C but you can get one from Canada that can do 100C (very expensive, but intended for beer brewing - tried looking them up but "Nothern Brewer" in US are on to it with a cheaper model like the Seaflo which they inconveniently also call "anti-gravity").

Fantastic - many thanks