HS2

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Chippy_Tea

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Predicted to be 3 times over budget at £106 billion and now they want to pause after part one which is of course the South and have a rethink about everything North of Birmingham,
Why don't they fix the existing network before throwing am obscene amount on something few will use.
 
Why not electrify the existing main lines which would be good at reducing the carbon footprint.
 
Without wishing to share my view on what should or should not be happening to HS2 the comparative cost of the new runways at Gatwick and Heathrow (if/when they ever get built) is of the order of £10 and £20billion respectively. So which is better value for money vs. HS2? Major infrastructure projects in the UK especially those managed by state run organisations like Network Rail always seem to overrun against their original estimates in both time and money in spite of lots of public huffing and puffing to try to keep things under control. The West Coast Mainline Upgrade from a few years back, the current London to Swansea (now Cardiff) Electrification and CrossRail are all testament to that.
 
.......... Major infrastructure projects in the UK especially those managed by state run organisations like Network Rail always seem to overrun against their original estimates in both time and money in spite of lots of public huffing and puffing to try to keep things under control. ................

Er ... what about the Scottish Parliament Building as an example of "privatised efficiency"? It was way, way over budget as indeed has EVERY "Cost Plus" government contract handed to private industry.

In all of these instances the shareholders have laughed all the way to the bank! You really have to stop reading the Daily Mail and blaming "state run organisations" and "the last government" for all of our ills.

BTW, check out this link ...

https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2020/01/20/wetherspoons-to-cut-price-of-10-drinks-to-mark-brexit/

After campaigning for Brexit the owner of Wetherspoons is offering cut price drinks from EU countries so that we can "All stay friends!" I may be a cynical old sod but I'll bet none of the "cheap drinks" will cost him real money!
 
Er ... what about the Scottish Parliament Building as an example of "privatised efficiency"? It was way, way over budget as indeed has EVERY "Cost Plus" government contract handed to private industry.

In all of these instances the shareholders have laughed all the way to the bank! You really have to stop reading the Daily Mail and blaming "state run organisations" and "the last government" for all of our ills.

BTW, check out this link ...

https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2020/01/20/wetherspoons-to-cut-price-of-10-drinks-to-mark-brexit/

After campaigning for Brexit the owner of Wetherspoons is offering cut price drinks from EU countries so that we can "All stay friends!" I may be a cynical old sod but I'll bet none of the "cheap drinks" will cost him real money!
Please don't start that one. I don't read the Daily Mail, nor the Daily Express, just like I don't read the Guardian, the Daily Mirror nor Socialist Worker like perhaps some on here do.
Notwithstanding that I stand by what I said. Major infrastructure projects, in the UK , always seem to overunn in cost and time, particularly those run by state run organisations like Network Rail, per the examples I gave. As for cost plus contracts the strength of the contract as directed by civil servants to their managing contractors who in turn manage the subcontrcators should prevent excessive profiteering. Having worked with some of the state agencies as a contractor in a number of different industries it beggars belief the money that these agencies fritter away.
And as for bringing Brexit and Wetherspoons into a discussion about HS2 I for one am bemused by the connection.
Nuff said
 
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personally more high speed trains please, so when we're subjected to the usual overcrowding on the trains we wont be stuck on them for as long.
 
Why not electrify the existing main lines which would be good at reducing the carbon footprint.

They have been phoning 5 live with suggestions similar to this this morning, electrifying the network and get new rolling stock would make a huge difference to all rail users not just those from the South who will benefit from HS2
 
Why don't they fix the existing network before throwing am obscene amount on something few will use.

HS2 is how you fix the existing network.

The basic problem is that traffic has doubled on the West Coast line in 20 years and they have have tried to accommodate it by squeezing all the slack on timing. Which means that as soon as anything goes wrong they don't have any margin for error. And for instance one express train takes up three "slots" that could be used by local trains or freight, it's terribly inefficient mixing slow and fast trains on the same track.

Plus there's a basic lack of capacity which is why they have to ration peak times by price, which is why you get your £400 peak-time return tickets and standing room only. HS2 is mostly about providing more capacity, which anyone who has travelled on the West Coast would understand is desperately needed.

How would _you_ solve these problems if not with HS2?

It's worth noting that people said that HS1 wouldn't get used for domestic traffic, but it grew from 6 million passengers to 15 million passengers in seven years, it takes time for people to rearrange their lives around new transport routes.
 
I cannot answer that NB but having listened to 5 live this morning with many frustrated rail travelers phoning in it would seem HS is not wanted and updating the existing railway is, no one has mentioned getting to their destination faster the maim concerns have been cancelled trains (usually down to a lack of drivers especially on Northern) old uncomfortable and overcrowded trains (often caused by the knock on effect of cancelled trains) no one wants 106 billion spending to reduce travelling times for a small number they want it distributing fairly so they all benefit.
 
Don't be afraid to use words like gravy train and corruption when talking about government contracts, when a private company tenders for a contract at a set price that's the price you pay you don't start adding millions on, they have after all done their homework and costings, look at carrilion yep gravy train and corruption comes to mind
 
Don't be afraid to use words like gravy train and corruption when talking about government contracts, when a private company tenders for a contract at a set price that's the price you pay you don't start adding millions on, they have after all done their homework and costings, look at carrilion yep gravy train and corruption comes to mind
Any fixed price contract will have the mechanism to add changes brought about by the customer, in its simplest form say by a schedule of rates. If the customer wants to change something post contract award the change is cost and schedule assessed (against the contract) by the contractor and the customer agrees to the change in term of cost and any schedule impact, 'hopefully' before it is incorporated into the scope. So on any major contract change control is extremely important both for the customer and the contractor i.e. the customers project team should always be resisting any changes requested by their own organisation, and the contractor should be vigilant so that changes to the original specification as requested by the customer are not taken on without them being paid for or it will ultimately come out of their bottom line. One significant problem with any major project is that the ultimate client often keeps changing his mind on what he wants especially if the project is undertaken over a long timespan, typically because the original customer contract specification was not thought through properly, although sometimes things have to change because of external technical standards being updated like ISOs etc. However on a fixed price contract if the contractor has failed to allow for something in the original contract spec and then discovers that post award it is to his cost, and comes out of his contingency or if that has been used up the bottom line.
And if the custmer has chunks of scope that are not properly defined at award estimated sums can be incorporated into the contract which are then properly cost and schedule assessed and agreed by the two parties when the detail is sufficiently defined to allow this to happen. And the mechanism for the agreement should be within the scope of the original contract.
Finally there are many model forms of contract available both in the UK and internationally and it is down to the customer to define what he wants at the outset and for the contractors to decide whether they are willing to accept the contract terms and with that any risk they will have to accept, and that decision making process is usually made before the contractor decides to put together and submit their bid. In other words the contratcor can decline and this often happens.
 
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I cannot answer that NB

Well until you can suggest alternatives, you can't tell if building HS2 is a better or worse choice, can you?

But the general consensus of railway engineers is that most of the quick fixes for the WCML have already been done and it's still bursting at the seams, the only solution is something as dramatic as building a whole new line to get express trains out of the way of local trains and freight.

having listened to 5 live this morning with many frustrated rail travelers phoning in it would seem HS is not wanted and updating the existing railway is, no one has mentioned getting to their destination faster the maim concerns have been cancelled trains (usually down to a lack of drivers especially on Northern) old uncomfortable and overcrowded trains (often caused by the knock on effect of cancelled trains) no one wants 106 billion spending to reduce travelling times for a small number they want it distributing fairly so they all benefit.

Nobody's doubting that people on SWT and Northern have had a really **** time of it lately - and part of it is because of the very thing Northern passengers want, new trains. Introducing new trains means taking drivers off for retraining - and Arriva seem to have bodged the retraining. Even something as "simple" as introducing new trains isn't as simple as the non-experts assume - and everyone thinks they can run a railway when they wouldn't dream of giving Sky hints on how to build a satellite.

But there's a deeper problem - one of the reasons Northern hasn't got investment is to avoid spending taxes on the relatively small number of people who use Northern (about 20% of the passenger-miles of say Thameslink-SWT). Northern's got real problems - it's the biggest loss-maker of the English franchises and has a relatively big network which means significant improvements cost a lot of money. The best option would probably be to close down half their network and pay taxis to move those affected, freeing up money for improving the rest of the network. But the people wanting improvements probably don't want that. They're getting their new trains, so HS2 won't affect whether they do - they've just been at the end of the queue when we're coming to the end of a generation of trains being replaced. But these things take time - and now that the rolling stock has been improved, it's time to look at what happens next. HS2 is that thing.

Northern are the junior partner on the WCML, and they are affected by the lack of capacity just like the express trains, but get even less say in things. So Northern would be prime beneficiaries of moving the express trains onto dedicated tracks. Imagine you had a road used by bikes and cars, but you could only have one or other on a given section of road. The cyclists would have to cycle a bit then move aside to let cars zoom by, then you'd have to stop the cars to let them cycle to the next rest point - it would be no good for either group. Build a separate cyclepath and both can move at the speed they want, and capacity is dramatically improved.

HS2 is primarily about more capacity to serve the fact that railway travel is mainstream, and in 20 years passengers have doubled on that main route between our five biggest urban areas (depending on definitions). Messing about in Dawlish doesn't fix that basic problem.
 
I don't know about any of this stuff but I do know it's absolutely ridiculous that it's more expensive to travel by train than it is to drive there in your car. And slower.
 
Well until you can suggest alternatives, you can't tell if building HS2 is a better or worse choice, can you?

I don't travel by train so wouldn't know where to start to suggesting how to improve the rail network, I do however read the news and listen to other rail users as I have today and it seems having read your replies they are all wrong in that they want the existing network bringing up to date and that the only answer is HS2, as i said earlier not one of those that phoned 5 live today mentioned shorter travel times what they want is trains that are nice to travel in and which are on time.


They're getting their new trains, so HS2 won't affect whether they do - they've just been at the end of the queue when we're coming to the end of a generation of trains being replaced. But these things take time - and now that the rolling stock has been improved, it's time to look at what happens next. HS2 is that thing.

I rarely see anything other than those things that look like busses on train wheels so its obviously taking time, will all the old trains be replaced with these new ones or will they replace a few and say they cannot afford to replace them all?
 
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I fail to understand how a project that was forecast to cost £34bn and will now cost £106bn plus, can be defended with a straight face. Clearly, the are fundamental flaws in the methodology, so how do we know they have got *any* part of it right at all? The argument isn't 'do we need more capacity' or even 'is this the most cost efficient way of adding capacity', it's 'f**k me, this project is clearly so badly designed and managed it's already 300% over budget; sack everyone and wind it up"

Then, if you have the appetite for it, start again. Properly this time.
 
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I fail to understand how a project that was forecast to cost £34bn and will now cost £106bn plus, can be defended with a straight face. Clearly, the are fundamental flaws in the methodology, so how do we know they have got *any* part of it right at all? The argument isn't 'do we need more capacity' or even 'is this the most cost efficient way of adding capacity', it's 'f**k me, this project is clearly so badly designed and managed it's already 300% over budget; sack everyone and wind it up"

Then, if you have the apatite for it, start again. Properly this time.

clapa
 
Then, if you have the appetite for it, start again. Properly this time.
Sadly no guarantee it would be any better next time around.
In fact many would bet against it.
And the same goes for any other large public infrastructure project in the UK.
That is what the debate should really be about,
Why do large UK infrastructure projects overrun?
Is it that there is
- too much political interference
- too many vested interests of one sort or another
- opportunity for much goal post moving since things take too long to build
- poor estimating at the outset or deliberate underestimating to ensure a project is given the go ahead
- etc etc
 

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