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I would also get some PET bottles to save weight,and post a couple out to someone who is good at tasting beer...it's not that expensive...I recently posted a couple of glass 500ml and it cost around £5..
 
Sometimes it's worth taking a step back and really looking at your process. I've recently had a step-change in the quality of my beers despite being a brewer for 9 years, here's what I've done. I'm not sure which one or all 3 made the difference.
  • I do a reduced-volume boil and top up in the FV, I didn't realise I should have been using more hops to compensate. I now use the Brewers Friend IBU calculator as all my previous brews weren't anywhere near as bitter as they should have been IBU Calculator Beer Bitterness - Brewer's Friend
  • The actual AA of hops can vary enormously e.g. my last batch of Fuggles was about half the AA of the usual value in my brewing software, so adjust accordingly. If you just stick to a recipe off xx grams of hops it will almost certainly be wrong due to the AA variation in each batch.
  • I thoroughly clean my bottles with a weak bleach solution, well rinsed afterwards.
Maybe these will help you improve your beer?
 
I have read somewhere advice not to put the lid on after the boil until the wort gets below 70C to avoid the risk of DMS, I have no idea if this is good advice but I usually only partially cover until below 70C as habit now.
It is generally recommended that the temperature of the yeast or starter is lower than the temperature of the wort when pitching as the other way round can stress the yeast and you risk off flavours so I am now always careful to do this, at least this is the case when using a starter but for rehydrated dry yeast Im not sure but certainly won't hurt.
Seems like you have your fermentation well controlled.
Thank you @Galena for your time in reading and replying.

I read something recently that said that all (most?) of the volatiles are removing in the first 15 mins of the boil - this is one of the things I need to investigate. I'm not sure what many of the off flavours taste like, so again, more research into DMS to see if that is a contributor.

Regarding dry yeast rehydration, only last week I read this article that seems to have evidence to suggest that the exact opposite is true, although this is 7 years ago, so maybe knowledge has changed. Interesting read though nevertheless.

Yeah - I think ferm temp is good
Cheers
 
FWIW I have never rehydrated dry yeast just sprinkled onto the wort. Recently I've put the yeast in as the wort was leaving the kettle..which seems to get a slightly quicker start on the fermentation.
 
Just brewing and realised I may be introducing hot side aeration in to my brews. Maybe, maybe not.

I mash in a buffalo, but because the sh!tt!ing thing doesn’t get up to a boil, I have to transfer to a stainless pan for the boil.

Currently trying to get it up to a boil, and thinking about sticking it in the SS pot when I had a eureka moment.

I will see if I can transfer without the splashing that normally follows.
 
Unless you are already taking steps to remove HSA (de-oxygenating strike water, treating it with metabisulfate/ascorbic acid, capping hot liquids etc) then your beer will have it, whether that is what you are tasting is another matter though.

can read more about techniques here
https://www.themodernbrewhouse.com/
 
Reading that you notice the background taste across all styles, I would be pointing the finger of blame at the water.
Water is your constant ingredient. Buy some RO water to make a brew and see how that goes.
HSA is a cause for oxidation I can't see it being that.
 
A couple of comments or ideas that haven't been discussed.

Get some phosphoric acid 75% and see if it is better, it seems like the quantity of CRS you are using might be an influence on flavour. Read Martin's comment here in the second post Crs

I would also recommend a very deep clean of all your equipment and fresh sanitization. Fermenters, bottling bucket, bottles and replace all your tubing and bottling wand. Use a bleach solution if you always use star-san or a different sanitizer like iodophor. And scrub everything. Diastaticus has done this to me before, tastes great out of the fermenter and then in the bottles it homogenizes flavours.

If you do use star San and keep it around for a while replace it and use distilled water. I noticed with hard water you tend to get above the working pH much quicker than RO or distilled.

Store bottles cold as soon as refermentation is complete, usually in two weeks or less. Cold storage is probably more important than reducing oxygen in my opinion.

Hope that helps.

edit: forgot also spigots! disassemble, deep scrub and boil. These are major problem areas.
 
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Also MJ yeasts..... maybe try fermentis for a few batches and see if that helps too. MJ yeasts have been very problematic for me.
 
Hi, I’d be happy to do a beer swap as I have just brewed a bitter with Beoir yeast.
I am just down the road South of Didcot and enjoy a drive out at the weekend so would be happy to drop off and have a chat through your process.
 
Reading through the thread I would agree with @foxy and the rest regarding your water. I had the same problem before I started treating water. What I had actually done before treatment was to add aciduated malt to the grain bill which in turn drove my pH down and did improve the beer. I still add it now as well as water treatment but it reduces the amount of salts and acid acid required.
 
Read Martin's comment here in the second post Crs
I would be careful about spreading this kind of misinformation. Have a look at post #11 in the same thread where even AJ Delange, a proponent of homeopathic mineral levels, calls Martin's post nonsense.
 
Hi everyone
Coming back to this one again to answer some of your suggestions and to ask more questions....
And to recap - I don't think there is an off flavour as such, but happy to be told otherwise. They just all smell and taste a bit beer-y and it's constant across all brews.

Reading that you notice the background taste across all styles, I would be pointing the finger of blame at the water.
Water is your constant ingredient. Buy some RO water to make a brew and see how that goes.
I have had this taste / smell thing when I have diluted tap water with bottled spring water. So not excluding tap water completely, but certainly reducing the possible impact?

I'm not sure how to get RO water other than a filter system. Can you purchase it? Would using only spring water for a brew help identify the problem? Or does it need to be RO?

Also MJ yeasts..... maybe try fermentis for a few batches and see if that helps too. MJ yeasts have been very problematic for me.
I have done a couple of brews with Fermentis S-04 and CML Beoir with (I think) the same results.

I would also recommend a very deep clean of all your equipment and fresh sanitization. Fermenters, bottling bucket, bottles and replace all your tubing and bottling wand. Use a bleach solution if you always use star-san or a different sanitizer like iodophor. And scrub everything. Diastaticus has done this to me before, tastes great out of the fermenter and then in the bottles it homogenizes flavours.
I may need to do this, but I've only been brewing a year and so I've only done about 10 brews and I'm pretty sure there are chaps on here that have been using their kit for years (I do, however, understand about cleanliness though - so I'm not dismissing this advice)

If you do use star San and keep it around for a while replace it and use distilled water. I noticed with hard water you tend to get above the working pH much quicker than RO or distilled.
I don't use StarSan. I use Harris SureSan, which was sold to me by the LHBS. I mix a teaspoon in a litre or so of warm water and let it dissolve. I use this for everything after the boil, spoons, taps, rubber seals, tubing, thermometer, hydrometer, FV, lid etc etc. i know it doesn't last more then an hour or so, so it's rarely, if ever, kept longer than that.

edit: forgot also spigots! disassemble, deep scrub and boil. These are major problem areas.
Those plastic taps are always fully dissembled and cleaned after and before each use, and sanitised prior to fitting in the FV. (Although, to be fair, I do not boil)

Store bottles cold as soon as refermentation is complete, usually in two weeks or less. Cold storage is probably more important than reducing oxygen in my opinion.
Now then..... this.....

I've been thinking through my processes.... and my mind jumped to the 2-2-2 "rule".

What I generally do is, ferment for a couple of weeks (or until fermentation has completed) at about 19c. I then prime, bottle and leave on a shelf in a dark cupboard for a couple of weeks at room temp. 19-22c. What I then do is take a couple of bottles out and put in the fridge to chill before consuming. They may well stay in the fridge for a couple of days.

Is it possible that I'm not cool conditioning at all / for long enough?

Hi, I’d be happy to do a beer swap as I have just brewed a bitter with Beoir yeast.
I am just down the road South of Didcot and enjoy a drive out at the weekend so would be happy to drop off and have a chat through your process.
@Dads_Ale - Happy to swap and go through the brew day - I appreciate your offer, thanks. May have to wait a few weeks though . . .

Reading through the thread I would agree with foxy and the rest regarding your water. I had the same problem before I started treating water. What I had actually done before treatment was to add aciduated malt to the grain bill which in turn drove my pH down and did improve the beer. I still add it now as well as water treatment but it reduces the amount of salts and acid acid required.
My water starts off about 180ppm and after CRS (depending on which brew we're taking about and additions) comes down to somewhere between 70-115ppm. I know that's not pH, but I don't have a pH meter. I just know my Alk is high and needs to be reduced to approximate the style I'm brewing.

Sorry it's a long one - I wanted to be thorough.
I really do appreciate your time in helping me on this.
Cheers, Phil
 
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Do you cold crash before bottling? Never done it myself but I believe it drops a lot of material out of suspension including yeast. If it's just the yeast giving the taste cold crashing should have an effect I would think. For 10L batches are you using 11g dry yeast?

On the equipment side, a simple way of just ruling out the water and the fermentation equipment in one go, without buying any new gear could be to buy one or two bottles of 5L mineral water and brew 1 gallon final volume with the bottled water and use the empty 5L bottle as the fermenter, with the lid on but loose, it's what I've been using for the past few brews and it's worked well, I dont even need to sanitize the FV
 
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Over here we have places which produce and sell RO water, though as a brewer its lost on me the reason why, Melbourne water is not far off RO water.
I condition my bottles at the fermentation temp about 17-18 C, I doubt going to 22 C would have any impact. Have you got a home brew club close by which you could join, they will soon tell you what could be wrong.
 
Do you cold crash before bottling? Never done it myself but I believe it drops a lot of material out of suspension including yeast. If it's just the yeast giving the taste cold crashing should have an effect I would think. For 10L batches are you using 11g dry yeast?
I have cold crashed a couple where they are lighter brews. Stouts and the hefe I didn’t bother.

I originally used a full packet for a couple of brews, then realised I was over pitching for standard ales, so I go with half a packet now.

On the equipment side, a simple way of just ruling out the water and the fermentation equipment in one go, without buying any new gear could be to buy one or two bottles of 5L mineral water and brew 1 gallon final volume with the bottled water and use the empty 5L bottle as the fermenter, with the lid on but loose, it's what I've been using for the past few brews and it's worked well, I dont even need to sanitize the FV
Great idea. Thanks.
 
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I condition my bottles at the fermentation temp about 17-18 C, I doubt going to 22 C would have any impact.
It was less the carbing temperature, more the lack of the final cool conditioning phase I was concerned about. The last ‘2’, if you will.

Have you got a home brew club close by which you could join, they will soon tell you what could be wrong.
I have. I only lurk on their bulletin board system. Plus with C19 there hasn’t been any meet ups. They all seem very serious (I know brewing is a serious business) and frankly I’m a bit intimidated as they all seem to be academic university types (it’s based in Oxford), but I should MTFU if I want to improve my brews.
 
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Hi @UKSkydiver
I am happy to do a postal swap before lockdown ends.
I have a couple of bitters to bottle next weekend and am keen on getting an independent opinion on them.
Like you I tend to find I retain a distinctive 'taste', not an off flavour, but a bit samey.
Drop me a PM if interested. :beer1:
 
My latest Czech Dark Lager is just about ready to bottle.

I can't change anything prior to this point, i.e. nuke the FV, but I can sure as hell ensure that the bottles are squeaky.

My plan is:
  • Take my already cleaned and oxi'd bottles
  • Soak in a bucket of Milton type solution for > 15 mins (I will also add my bottling stick to this solution)
  • Rinse a couple of times in bucket of tap water (and rinse bottling stick)
  • Bake in the oven for @ 120c for 20 mins
  • Store covered until needed, which will probably be tomorrow
  • Sanitise bottles, stick and caps with the previously mentioned SureSan solution before bottling
  • Oh - and I plan to avoid using the fitted FV tap. I have a spare bit of syphon tubing I can use to bypass the tap, which will also be Miltoned and rinsed.
That should remove at least the tap, bottles and bottling equipment from the equation.
 

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