Kamikaze knitting club water salt additions

[Pennine]

And what I mean by targeting, do you want your stout to be like a Guinness or a Sam Smith's Stout? Both have different water profiles and in order to get the water measurements correct you need to know what your target profile is.

Give this a read.
http://howtobrew.com/book/section-3/understanding-the-mash-ph/balancing-the-malts-and-minerals

 

[Monkhouse]

I'm having problems reading your report..can you look at this post and fill in the values as I have with the Mosher target profile..and then your target profile please. Also your grain bill.and sparge and mash water volumes.

What would target profile be? Do you mean stout? Sorry if I’m sounding thick it’s been a long day

 

[Monkhouse]

Ca- 12.8
Mg- 1.51
Na- 14.4
Cl (chloride?) - 11
So4- 7.24
CaCo3- 38

 

[Monkhouse]

And what I mean by targeting, do you want your stout to be like a Guinness or a Sam Smith's Stout? Both have different water profiles and in order to get the water measurements correct you need to know what your target profile is.

Give this a read.
http://howtobrew.com/book/section-3/understanding-the-mash-ph/balancing-the-malts-and-minerals

So the style of stout is American stout, dunno if there’s a profile that matches that but it’s a brewdog clone

 

[Sadfield]

Ca- 12.8
Mg- 1.51
Na- 14.4
Cl (chloride?) - 11
So4- 7.24
CaCo3- 38

Next time, plug those numbers into this (choose None, for Carbonate Reduction Method) and pick Stout from the Target Liquor tab and then add your total volume of water to be treated.

https://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/water.html
As for table salt, I've never noticed a problem with caking agent. Sodium Chloride is part of all my water treatment. Here's what it does to beer.

Sodium (Na+1)
Atomic Weight = 22.9
Equivalent Weight = 22.9
Brewing Range = 0-150 ppm.
Sodium can occur in very high levels, particularly if you use a salt-based (i.e. ion exchange) water softener at home. In general, you should never use softened water for mashing. You probably needed the calcium it replaced and you definitely don't need the high sodium levels. At levels of 70 - 150 ppm it rounds out the beer flavors, accentuating the sweetness of the malt. But above 200 ppm the beer will start to taste salty. The combination of sodium with a high concentration of sulfate ions will generate a very harsh bitterness. Therefore keep at least one or the other as low as possible, preferably the sodium.

Chloride (Cl-1)
Atomic Weight = 35.4
Equivalent Weight = 35.4
Brewing Range = 0-250 ppm.
The chloride ion also accentuates the flavor and fullness of beer. Concentrations above 300 ppm (from heavily chlorinated water or residual bleach sanitizer) can lead to mediciney flavors due to chlorophenol compounds.

http://howtobrew.com/book/section-3/understanding-the-mash-ph/reading-a-water-report

 

[Monkhouse]

Next time, plug those numbers into this (choose None, for Carbonate Reduction Method) and pick Stout from the Target Liquor tab and then add your total volume of water to be treated.

https://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/water.html
As for table salt, I've never noticed a problem with caking agent. Sodium Chloride is part of all my water treatment. Here's what it does to beer.

Sodium (Na+1)
Atomic Weight = 22.9
Equivalent Weight = 22.9
Brewing Range = 0-150 ppm.
Sodium can occur in very high levels, particularly if you use a salt-based (i.e. ion exchange) water softener at home. In general, you should never use softened water for mashing. You probably needed the calcium it replaced and you definitely don't need the high sodium levels. At levels of 70 - 150 ppm it rounds out the beer flavors, accentuating the sweetness of the malt. But above 200 ppm the beer will start to taste salty. The combination of sodium with a high concentration of sulfate ions will generate a very harsh bitterness. Therefore keep at least one or the other as low as possible, preferably the sodium.

Chloride (Cl-1)
Atomic Weight = 35.4
Equivalent Weight = 35.4
Brewing Range = 0-250 ppm.
The chloride ion also accentuates the flavor and fullness of beer. Concentrations above 300 ppm (from heavily chlorinated water or residual bleach sanitizer) can lead to mediciney flavors due to chlorophenol compounds.

http://howtobrew.com/book/section-3/understanding-the-mash-ph/reading-a-water-report

Thanks allot for this info, everyone thanks so much!
I’ll have a little play around with that water treatment calc link too. Cheers

 

[Monkhouse]

Z

Next time, plug those numbers into this (choose None, for Carbonate Reduction Method) and pick Stout from the Target Liquor tab and then add your total volume of water to be treated.

https://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/water.html
As for table salt, I've never noticed a problem with caking agent. Sodium Chloride is part of all my water treatment. Here's what it does to beer.

Sodium (Na+1)
Atomic Weight = 22.9
Equivalent Weight = 22.9
Brewing Range = 0-150 ppm.
Sodium can occur in very high levels, particularly if you use a salt-based (i.e. ion exchange) water softener at home. In general, you should never use softened water for mashing. You probably needed the calcium it replaced and you definitely don't need the high sodium levels. At levels of 70 - 150 ppm it rounds out the beer flavors, accentuating the sweetness of the malt. But above 200 ppm the beer will start to taste salty. The combination of sodium with a high concentration of sulfate ions will generate a very harsh bitterness. Therefore keep at least one or the other as low as possible, preferably the sodium.

Chloride (Cl-1)
Atomic Weight = 35.4
Equivalent Weight = 35.4
Brewing Range = 0-250 ppm.
The chloride ion also accentuates the flavor and fullness of beer. Concentrations above 300 ppm (from heavily chlorinated water or residual bleach sanitizer) can lead to mediciney flavors due to chlorophenol compounds.

http://howtobrew.com/book/section-3/understanding-the-mash-ph/reading-a-water-report

It’s STILL coming up with 19g calcium chloride

 

[Sadfield]

Z

It’s STILL coming up with 19g calcium chloride

That's fine. I think it was @Pennine that thought it sounded too much. The profiles on that calculator are Graham Wheelers and very reliable and good for a second opinion.

 

[foxy]

Z

It’s STILL coming up with 19g calcium chloride

Are you trying to use Dublin water profile for stout? If you are you should also take note what Brewers Friend states, i.e They don't have a clue what salts are added by breweries to achieve a water profile.
Read here what Martin Brungard has to say in post 3
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=5341.0

 

[Monkhouse]

So you think i can trust these calculations? I’ve inputted my water profile right haven’t I and the total water amount?
My 37litres water includes 20l mash and 17 sparge
Table salt is also still 6g on this calculator too.
I haven’t got any Epsom salt, only gypsum, calcium chloride and table salt

 

[Monkhouse]

Are you trying to use Dublin water profile for stout? If you are you should also take note what Brewers Friend states, i.e They don't have a clue what salts are added by breweries to achieve a water profile.
Read here what Martin Brungard has to say in post 3
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=5341.0

I just clicked the stout tab, didn’t say anything about Dublin water profile. The water profile I’m inputting is my own local water source

 

[foxy]

I just clicked the stout tab, didn’t say anything about Dublin water profile. The water profile I’m inputting is my own local water source

Source water is your water profile. Brewing water profile is the one you are trying to achieve.
So most would go for a Dublin water profile brewing a stout.
If your calculator is telling you to add 19 g of chloride, which lowers pH then it is compensating for something else which you have added.
You would do well if you followed M. Brungard's advice.

 

[Clint]

Would you still go for a Dublin profile brewing an American stout?

 

[foxy]

Would you still go for a Dublin profile brewing an American stout?

I don't, far easier to adjust the water to the fermentable grains and add the none fermentable grains later (mash out), or the steeped liquor of the non fermentables to the boil.

 

[Sadfield]

If your calculator is telling you to add 19 g of chloride, which lowers pH then it is compensating for something else which you have added.

You're confusing chloride with calcium.

The Stout water profile is from a late, but respected homebrewing writer, who has written homebrewing books for CAMRA. It's his suggested profile for brewing a Stout, not a replicated source water profile. I've used it numerous times and works well in all styles of stout.

 

[foxy]

You're confusing chloride with calcium.

The Stout water profile is from a late, but respected homebrewing writer, who has written homebrewing books for CAMRA. It's his suggested profile for brewing a Stout, no replicated water profile. I've used it numerous times and works well.

Calcium Chloride is what is stated on the calculator, Calcium Chloride is lowering the pH further, the grain bill will have lowered it significantly the job at hand is to raise the pH and get a balance with the minerals.

 

[Sadfield]

Calcium Chloride is what is stated on the calculator, Calcium Chloride is lowering the pH further, the grain bill will have lowered it significantly the job at hand is to raise the pH and get a balance with the minerals.

That's why there's also chalk in there on both this and the OPs original water adjustment calculation. The carbonate in chalk balances out the acidify effect of calcium, allowing higher levels of chloride. It probably looks off to those that follow american brewing, which favours aneamic water profiles.

 

[foxy]

That's why there's also chalk in there on both this and the OPs original water adjustment calculation. The carbonate in chalk balances out the acidify effect of calcium, allowing higher levels of chloride. It probably looks off to those that follow american brewing, which favours aneamic water profiles.

I don't think he has entered his grain bill, something is definitely wrong, the calcium carbonate is only 30 something ppm. I would like to see how he arrived at those figures. Surely the pH would be in the 4. whatever range just from the grain bill. That is far to much chloride. For a RO water this is M.B's recommendations for a stout, forget about which country this is to counter the buffering effect of the grain bill for a 19 litre batch.

So to provide a recommendation to this brewer's original question, I offer the following recommendation for a Dublin water that would contain enough alkalinity to buffer the mash pH into an appropriate range while mimicing the original Dublin profile.

Ca 85 ppm
Mg 4 ppm
Na 12 ppm
SO4 55 ppm
Cl 19 ppm
HCO3 200 ppm

 

[Sadfield]

I don't think he has entered his grain bill, something is definitely wrong, the calcium carbonate is only 30 something ppm. I would like to see how he arrived at those figures. Surely the pH would be in the 4. whatever range just from the grain bill. That is far to much chloride. For a RO water this is M.B's recommendations for a stout, forget about which country this is to counter the buffering effect of the grain bill for a 19 litre batch.

So to provide a recommendation to this brewer's original question, I offer the following recommendation for a Dublin water that would contain enough alkalinity to buffer the mash pH into an appropriate range while mimicing the original Dublin profile.

Ca 85 ppm
Mg 4 ppm
Na 12 ppm
SO4 55 ppm
Cl 19 ppm
HCO3 200 ppm

Bland. Sodium and chloride are flavour and fullness enhancers.

Country matters, if you've grown up drinking and become accustomed to the beer there. British beer has high mineral content. Check the table at the end of this piece, from a company that supplies and assists the british brewing industry, including water analysis.

Chloride

200 ppm Bitter

200 ppm Mild

300 ppm Porter

10 ppm Lager

https://www.murphyandson.co.uk/resources/technical-articles/water-water-everywhere/
Too much chloride? ya need to grow some minerals, lad.

 

[foxy]

Bland. Sodium and chloride are flavour and fullness enhancers.

Country matters, if you've grown up drinking and become accustomed to the beer there. British beer has high mineral content. Check the table at the end of this piece, from a company that supplies and assists the british brewing industry, including water analysis.

Chloride

200 ppm Bitter

200 ppm Mild

300 ppm Porter

10 ppm Lager

https://www.murphyandson.co.uk/resources/technical-articles/water-water-everywhere/
Too much chloride? ya need to grow some minerals, lad.

But the pH will be way off for his water.