Kveik

[AdeDunn]

Ade, Do you think thee are isolates, single strains or their blends?
Have you contacted them?

I don't think they are no. I haven't contacted them, but reading their Twitter and Facebook pages, these guys are seriously a "cottage industry" rather than a professional lab, so I suspect that they've sourced the yeast direct and cultured it up most likely.

I'm not so sure the Bjorn is Stranda any more either. Was just reading some info on milkthefunk on some trials they did on various strains, it MIGHT be some form of Hornindal… I might have to give up trying to guess, and actually contact them and ask, assuming they are willing to say... lol

[Edited to add that I've sent them an email, asking if they are willing to tell me the strains, if they are isolates, and if it's ok if I share that information here if they are... So fingers crossed.]

 

[Mrobson]

I’d be interested in a swap. I’ve got Voss and am currently growing up some #38 Aurland, which I’m off to brew with next. Either a bottle swap or some dried flakes is cool with me.

 

[entertheflagon]

I don't think they are no. I haven't contacted them, but reading their Twitter and Facebook pages, these guys are seriously a "cottage industry" rather than a professional lab, so I suspect that they've sourced the yeast direct and cultured it up most likely.

I'm not so sure the Bjorn is Stranda any more either. Was just reading some info on milkthefunk on some trials they did on various strains, it MIGHT be some form of Hornindal… I might have to give up trying to guess, and actually contact them and ask, assuming they are willing to say... lol

[Edited to add that I've sent them an email, asking if they are willing to tell me the strains, if they are isolates, and if it's ok if I share that information here if they are... So fingers crossed.]

Yes, I reckon you're probably right, they like as not feel reluctant to actually state they are poaching strains.Would be great to know though.

 

[BeerCat]

There is a Facebook group selling a lot of different strains. I don't have the link but it should be easy enough to find.

 

[AdeDunn]

Yes, I reckon you're probably right, they like as not feel reluctant to actually state they are poaching strains.Would be great to know though.

No reluctance at all, got a reply this morning.

They're lab isolated, as they supply a lot of breweries, and some of the strains contain quite a lot of bacteria. However they've said if I'd like the original strains they'd be happy to supply me with these if I give them a shout.

Bjorn is from Hornindal, so my second theory was the correct one.

I was spot on with Valkyrie, it is indeed from Ebbegarden.

These 2 in particular contain a lot of bacteria apparently. But yeah, I think I'll see about getting hold of the original strains soon from them too, be interesting to compare the result from the lab isolated yeast vs the original kveik.
ing
I've asked for info on the other 2 strains they do, but I'd say that Ragnar is almost definitely Voss, and thinking about it properly Lagertha sounds a lot more like Stranda than Bjorn did (the banana.. You get a ton of banana aroma during fermentation, but only hints of tropical fruit in the flavour I've found). The Lagertha one though is the one I'm most likely wrong on... lol

I'll definitely get hold of original cultures from them once I can afford again though, and do some comparisons. If only so I know myself which I prefer the results from.

 

[entertheflagon]

No reluctance at all, got a reply this morning.

They're lab isolated, as they supply a lot of breweries, and some of the strains contain quite a lot of bacteria. However they've said if I'd like the original strains they'd be happy to supply me with these if I give them a shout.

Bjorn is from Hornindal, so my second theory was the correct one.

I was spot on with Valkyrie, it is indeed from Ebbegarden.

These 2 in particular contain a lot of bacteria apparently. But yeah, I think I'll see about getting hold of the original strains soon from them too, be interesting to compare the result from the lab isolated yeast vs the original kveik.
ing
I've asked for info on the other 2 strains they do, but I'd say that Ragnar is almost definitely Voss, and thinking about it properly Lagertha sounds a lot more like Stranda than Bjorn did (the banana.. You get a ton of banana aroma during fermentation, but only hints of tropical fruit in the flavour I've found). The Lagertha one though is the one I'm most likely wrong on... lol

I'll definitely get hold of original cultures from them once I can afford again though, and do some comparisons. If only so I know myself which I prefer the results from.

Original Hornidal and Ebgarden I can sort for you, no need to bother them.
Their isolates might give a nice beer nonetheless.

 

[Zephyr259]

Original Hornidal and Ebgarden I can sort for you, no need to bother them.
Their isolates might give a nice beer nonetheless.

Is your Hornidal an ordiginal one, I thought you had the Omega Version? I've read too many blogs the last couple of days but someone did a side by side on Hornidal with and without the bacteria and it seemed that the bacteria was important for the traditional flavour the original brewer was getting.

 

[entertheflagon]

Is your Hornidal an ordiginal one, I thought you had the Omega Version? I've read too many blogs the last couple of days but someone did a side by side on Hornidal with and without the bacteria and it seemed that the bacteria was important for the traditional flavour the original brewer was getting.

The Omega Hornidal is multi strain,(8) it's the Raftevold so original, seems to be the main Hornidal and it has some bacteria but I also have Espe which is another Hornidal. Bacteria not specified.
There are about 8 different Hornidals , Raftevold, Gausemel, Tomasgard, are marked on the registry as having bacteria, ( the others must have too I'd guess but not specified).
Seems most often I've heard the comparison between the Yeast bay, isolate of Voss versus the original Voss though.
I'm feeling the most original pack supplier, selling the real Mcoy is Omega, they mention their Voss yeast is 'A traditional Norwegian kveik directly from the Gjernes farmstead,'
The Yeast bay stuff is an isolate though with some strains removed in fact they say it's a single strain,. Like the stuff Ade talked about above, bacteria and probably a few strains , free.
(I noticed that a certain guy in Norway, let's call him 2 ml, said he was selling the Omega Simonatis yeast , being his best source!)
There are other commercial sellers ( like Escapement labs) though of ' cleaned up' or select strains of Hornidal etc, even one who's blending different Kveiks.
I like traditional.

 

[entertheflagon]

I suppose bacteria will also be farm specific, house specific etc, some you might like, some you won't want! Most of the time you 'll never know what's there.
Difficult one I guess.

 

[AdeDunn]

Omega isolate bud, I have their Stranda (Hothead Ale). My understanding is that ALL of the commercial stuff is isolated, even if it contains multiple yeast strains, as they get the yeast from the yeast bank who won't store bacteria, only yeast. I could be mistaken on that. There isn't much choice with Stranda anyway, as although the original Kveik may have been multiple strains, only one strain of yeast could be roused from the sample gathered, the rest have been lost to history so far it seems. The lack of mention of bacteria, or of the mushroom or caramel on the Omega description for their Hornindal would suggest that it doesn't contain the bacteria: https://omegayeast.com/norwegian-kveik-strains-the-history-unique-aspects-and-our-strains.

After more digging, milkthefunk say that the Omega Hornindal doesn't contain lactic acid bacteria, but is the original mix of yeast strains. So no idea if that means no bacteria, or just one type of bacteria removed... http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Kveik

Oh and yeah, Lars Garshol compared Hornindal with bacteria with Hornindal from the yeast bank that hadn't got the bacteria (but does still have 8 strains of yeast in it is my understanding), the difference was that the bacteria gives the mushroom and creamy caramel flavour according to the blog.

I know Yeast Bay went further with their Voss, they isolated it down to a single yeast strain. It's the one I've been using. I found it a little slower, but gives clearer beer. I've yet to taste any real orange from it though to be honest. I would take Omega Stranda (Hothead Ale) over Yeast Bay Voss though for anything I want yeast flavour in, it is far easier to get some flavour from.

My understanding from my email from WHC is that they just removed the bacteria, the yeast strains are all still in there. They just removed the bacteria as the commercial brewers that they supply don't like the bacteria left in, probably due to the problems it can cause with consistency between batches, and maybe with things like over-carbonation after packaging maybe? I know that some US brewers have been having problems with this, thanks to either contaminated packing plants (pack a saison and oops, nobody sterilised the plant before packing normal beers afterwards...) or using fruit pulp after fermentation has finished.... But yeah, my understanding for Hornindal Kveik is that you don't get the "proper" complete flavour without the bacteria (gotta be honest though, mushroom and creamy caramel?), still sounds pretty delicious though, just not something you'd use to brew actual traditional Norwegian beer with... Which I don't anyway. I'll use it in something pale and fruity most likely, or in something dark and equally fruity (that citra and mosaic porter I made with Hothead is lush...)….

 

[entertheflagon]

Now that's a curious thing then. There are bacteria you want and stuff you don't. If they've isolated the cerevisiae strains and kept just them ( all of them), cleaned it up so to speak then fair enough, no bacteria but I reckon after the first brew there will be stuff in the kveik from your environment.
A spoonful of yogurt would stick back any lactic taken out maybe.
Also there are malts which can be more prone to lactic infection, I remember I always had trouble if I was sloppy mashing Maris Otter for inst.
Local bacteria would be what you'd need, and that, stuff which would not be killed on drying the Kveik as they did traditionally to keep the yeast strains but loose the bacteria which doesn't survive well.
I'm guessing different samples of the same Kveik from different places in Norway even would have different strains of local bacteria which might be a good thing or a bad thing?
I can imagine the lactic bact being a source of those Mushroom flavours though.
The Espe Kveik I got came from a brewery in Norway which was the first generation brew from the yeast straight from the Espe family so if there is bacteria in there, and I don't see how any of the farms can keep it out unless they have a lab in the attic ,though it's not mentioned on the registry ,it'd be interesting to compare.
Been digging here but can't find any info on bacteria for some of the strains deposited by farm owners https://www.ncyc.co.uk/saccharomyces-cerevisiae-4224 Though Ebgarden is supposed to have s bact but Framgarden has not according the the registry.
I think a lot of it is literally ' up in the air' with local bacteria playing a big part of the picture.
Why some farms had their Kveik go bad and have taken from neighbors, mixed strains etc, like when you make a sourdough culture, can be great or stink?

 

[entertheflagon]

Now that's a curious thing then. There are bacteria you want and stuff you don't. If they've isolated the cerevisiae strains and kept just them ( all of them), cleaned it up so to speak then fair enough, no bacteria but I reckon after the first brew there will be stuff in the kveik from your environment.
A spoonful of yogurt would stick back any lactic taken out maybe.
Also there are malts which can be more prone to lactic infection, I remember I always had trouble if I was sloppy mashing Maris Otter for inst.
Local bacteria would be what you'd need, and that, stuff which would not be killed on drying the Kveik as they did traditionally to keep the yeast strains but loose the bacteria which doesn't survive well.
I'm guessing different samples of the same Kveik from different places in Norway even would have different strains of local bacteria which might be a good thing or a bad thing?
I can imagine the lactic bact being a source of those Mushroom flavours though.
The Espe Kveik I got came from a brewery in Norway which was the first generation brew from the yeast straight from the Espe family so if there is bacteria in there, and I don't see how any of the farms can keep it out unless they have a lab in the attic ,though it's not mentioned on the registry ,it'd be interesting to compare.
Been digging here but can't find any info on bacteria for some of the strains deposited by farm owners https://www.ncyc.co.uk/saccharomyces-cerevisiae-4224 Though Ebgarden is supposed to have s bact but Framgarden has not according the the registry.
I think a lot of it is literally ' up in the air' with local bacteria playing a big part of the picture.
Why some farms had their Kveik go bad and have taken from neighbors, mixed strains etc, like when you make a sourdough culture, can be great or stink?

Thinking about it, I reckon a bacteria clean up ( obviously get rid of nasties) might not necessarily get rid of lactic , whether in this case it has or not since you can buy to make yoghurts, sour pitches etc,https://www.whitelabs.com/yeast-bank/wlp677-lactobacillus-delbrueckii-bacteria, could stick a bit in if you like fungi?

 

[Sadfield]

At the speed at which these yeasts ferment, would bacteria have that much influence on flavour? Especially, those that aren't alcohol tolerant. And then there's hop tolerance to add to the mix.

 

[entertheflagon]

At the speed at which these yeasts ferment, would bacteria have that much influence on flavour? Especially, those that aren't alcohol tolerant. And then there's hop tolerance to add to the mix.

I suppose you can hope the bacteria is beaten, that's what they'd aim for, but a lot of the dilemma of this mushroom thing has to rest on the presence of a lactic bacteria I reckon, I think there can' be that much consistency about it as when the stuff was contaminated with it it was usually considered bad I read.
I think that kettle souring , brewing method etc might be influencing this mushroom flavour?
I don't know, Maybe the ' cleaner' Kveiks with fruit notes are the ones I'm looking for.
They ferment fast, though I've found if they have a head of steam up, being fresh, they work better.

 

[AdeDunn]

At the speed at which these yeasts ferment, would bacteria have that much influence on flavour? Especially, those that aren't alcohol tolerant. And then there's hop tolerance to add to the mix.

Lars Garshol certainly thought so:-

http://www.garshol.priv.no/blog/329.html

Same batch, split into 5. 2 were fermented with Hornindal, 1 with bacteria, 1 without (from NCYC, who apparently won't store bacteria, so they isolate the yeast from it when sent samples). No milky caramel or mushroom in the beer without the bacteria... Now I am going to put my neck out here and say that depending on the tastes of the brewer, for some this may well be a good thing, much like some folks don't like sours, some folks don't like brett etc... As to hops, if you read about how the traditional brewers make the beer in the Hornindal region, it's raw beer, no boil, with the hops going in a bag (of an unknown AA or variety as they come from the pharmacy...) and the wort basically been run through them whilst been transferred from tun to fermentation vessel: http://www.garshol.priv.no/blog/342.html. So no IBUs, so those hops are probably not going to do much. Yet in the same blog, he reckons they deter bacteria, the same guy who says the bacteria in the Kveik give it the flavour… So I am going to assume (dangerous) that he means unwanted bacteria. Kinda like how they make lambic at a certain temperature to inhibit unwanted bacteria. Maybe the bacteria in the Kveik have mutated/adapted with some sort of resistance? Just look at antibiotic resistance...

I don't see much point trying to add your own bacteria, as without a lab identifying the bacteria in the original, you're just throwing in a random variable and hoping really. Instead of mushroom and creamy caramel you'll likely end up with sour milk flavour.

 

[entertheflagon]

Lars Garshol certainly thought so:-

http://www.garshol.priv.no/blog/329.html

Same batch, split into 5. 2 were fermented with Hornindal, 1 with bacteria, 1 without (from NCYC, who apparently won't store bacteria, so they isolate the yeast from it when sent samples). No milky caramel or mushroom in the beer without the bacteria... Now I am going to put my neck out here and say that depending on the tastes of the brewer, for some this may well be a good thing, much like some folks don't like sours, some folks don't like brett etc... As to hops, if you read about how the traditional brewers make the beer in the Hornindal region, it's raw beer, no boil, with the hops going in a bag (of an unknown AA or variety as they come from the pharmacy...) and the wort basically been run through them whilst been transferred from tun to fermentation vessel: http://www.garshol.priv.no/blog/342.html. So no IBUs, so those hops are probably not going to do much. Yet in the same blog, he reckons they deter bacteria, the same guy who says the bacteria in the Kveik give it the flavour… So I am going to assume (dangerous) that he means unwanted bacteria. Kinda like how they make lambic at a certain temperature to inhibit unwanted bacteria. Maybe the bacteria in the Kveik have mutated/adapted with some sort of resistance? Just look at antibiotic resistance...

I don't see much point trying to add your own bacteria, as without a lab identifying the bacteria in the original, you're just throwing in a random variable and hoping really. Instead of mushroom and creamy caramel you'll likely end up with sour milk flavour.

Agree, try all the different types you can and you're bound to find one to live with, eat your mushroom pate with it if you like.
There was a time when taxes had to be paid in hops in Scandinavia, Sweden at least, every place seems to have them growing up fences now, I doubt anyone knew what varieties they were, just good for paying your tax bill. Those you'd get now would be light years away from what they had.

 

[uDicko]

Give me your address PM.

Vial of Hornidal now received, now on to making the starter.

@entertheflagon thank you!

 

[Sadfield]

Lars Garshol certainly thought so:-

Yes. Sorry, I was unclear. I was referring to the early post regarding local, airborne contamination. If it's a yeast contamination, then I'd expect the bacteria to a have a head start, as it does with Belgian style mixed cultures.

 

[AdeDunn]

Yes. Sorry, I was unclear. I was referring to the early post regarding local, airborne contamination. If it's a yeast contamination, then I'd expect the bacteria to a have a head start, as it does with Belgian style mixed cultures.

Ahh yeah, I get you now. Like the batch I had to flush. I am positive that had I pitched enough healthy Voss then the wild yeast contamination would never have gotten as much of a hold as it did. As it was, the wild yeast dominated from the off and pretty much did the entire fermentation, so I got the classic medicinal/Elastoplast flavour of wild Brett, rather than just a bit of funk... I binned the Voss slurry I pulled the yeast from, and bleached my FV (as I know the exact point of contamination fortunately). The blog is full of accounts of farmers bringing Kveik out of their cellars and sheds, and when it's brought back they find there's live bacteria there, or it's not Kveik at all but wild yeast they've been using (like the guy who's been brewing with Candida yeast... lol). I vaguely remember something from my biology classes about certain bacteria been able to form encapsulated cysts when conditions are unhealthy for them, so it's possible I guess that that is how some bacteria survive drying. There just isn't a lot that I can find on the bacteria side of Kveik, yet.

Me, I plan to just try lots of strains, from lots of sources, and find out what I like and what works well for me.

 

[entertheflagon]

Yes. Sorry, I was unclear. I was referring to the early post regarding local, airborne contamination. If it's a yeast contamination, then I'd expect the bacteria to a have a head start, as it does with Belgian style mixed cultures.

Ahh yeah, I get you now. Like the batch I had to flush. I am positive that had I pitched enough healthy Voss then the wild yeast contamination would never have gotten as much of a hold as it did. As it was, the wild yeast dominated from the off and pretty much did the entire fermentation, so I got the classic medicinal/Elastoplast flavour of wild Brett, rather than just a bit of funk... I binned the Voss slurry I pulled the yeast from, and bleached my FV (as I know the exact point of contamination fortunately). The blog is full of accounts of farmers bringing Kveik out of their cellars and sheds, and when it's brought back they find there's live bacteria there, or it's not Kveik at all but wild yeast they've been using (like the guy who's been brewing with Candida yeast... lol). I vaguely remember something from my biology classes about certain bacteria been able to form encapsulated cysts when conditions are unhealthy for them, so it's possible I guess that that is how some bacteria survive drying. There just isn't a lot that I can find on the bacteria side of Kveik, yet.

Me, I plan to just try lots of strains, from lots of sources, and find out what I like and what works well for me.

I wonder how much of this cheap Italian plonk I drank in my youth was fermented with athletes' foot!