Lager that's not lagered

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Simonh82

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I was listening to a recent Beer Smith podcast where Dr Charlie Bamford was interviewed about beer haze and stability. It was an interesting listen but the thing that pricked my interest was the mention that when he was in charge of brewing the biggest selling lager in the UK (stella) he basically didn't lager it at all as he said it didn't make any difference to modern well produced beer.

After a diacytle rest it was cold crashed to -1°C for 3 days and then packaged and shipped out.

If this is done for Stella I'm sure it will be done for the rest of the maco-brews. So, your pint of lager has likely never been lagered. He didn't say how long it spent in primary.

Whilst I'm no big fan of macro lager they aren't technically bad beers. Interest that you can maybe get away without months in the cold.

I wonder what would happen if you matched this with the quick lager fermentation schedule. Who's to say the big brewers aren't already doing that too!
 
I have a 'lager' on tap right now.

It was cold crashed for 5 days and then packaged, put on gas for 4 days and is lovely drinking and crystal clear.
 
I was listening to a recent Beer Smith podcast where Dr Charlie Bamford was interviewed about beer haze and stability. It was an interesting listen but the thing that pricked my interest was the mention that when he was in charge of brewing the biggest selling lager in the UK (stella) he basically didn't lager it at all as he said it didn't make any difference to modern well produced beer.

After a diacytle rest it was cold crashed to -1°C for 3 days and then packaged and shipped out.

If this is done for Stella I'm sure it will be done for the rest of the maco-brews. So, your pint of lager has likely never been lagered. He didn't say how long it spent in primary.

Whilst I'm no big fan of macro lager they aren't technically bad beers. Interest that you can maybe get away without months in the cold.

I wonder what would happen if you matched this with the quick lager fermentation schedule. Who's to say the big brewers aren't already doing that too!


Very interesting, I guess if with the right yeast and well controlled fermentation conditions they are able to achieve a good clean ferment. Then at those volumes, the beer matures extremely quickly.

Leaving sediment and particles as the only other hurdle, which is presumably filtered out.
 
He said that he was of the belief that beers don't really benefit from extended conditioning after any fermentation by-products have been cleared up and its dropped bright.

To be fair to him he did say that the last Masters student that he was going to supervise before retiring had been set the challenge of providing whether he was tight or wrong about this.
 
He said that he was of the belief that beers don't really benefit from extended conditioning after any fermentation by-products have been cleared up and its dropped bright.

To be fair to him he did say that the last Masters student that he was going to supervise before retiring had been set the challenge of providing whether he was tight or wrong about this.


I'm inclined to believe that he is correct. I tend to go for longer maturation times personally, because I have no direct control over my fermentation temps.

Only because I have no room for a fermentation chamber. I tend use different rooms for different brews.

I think the more drawn out traditional methods still have their place though, and I wouldn't hesitate to recommend them to new hobbyists that want their beer to taste better.

Because more often than not they have no control over fermentation or are unwilling/unable to invest cash at the beginning of their homebrew journey.
 
I'm inclined to believe that he is correct. I tend to go for longer maturation times personally, because I have no direct control over my fermentation temps.

Only because I have no room for a fermentation chamber. I tend use different rooms for different brews.

I think the more drawn out traditional methods still have their place though, and I wouldn't hesitate to recommend them to new hobbyists that want their beer to taste better.

Because more often than not they have no control over fermentation or are unwilling/unable to invest cash at the beginning of their homebrew journey.


I'd be interested to know what you mean by this? As in longer conditioning? How long do you mean?
 
I'd be interested to know what you mean by this? As in longer conditioning? How long do you mean?

Here's my average schedule for an ale.

3 Weeks Primary
2 Weeks Carbonation in bottles
2 Weeks Cool Conditioning

Then for a true lager

3 Weeks Primary
4-6 Weeks Lagering outside in a shed in a secondary.
2 Weeks Carbonation



So I go for longer bulk conditioning time. I don't know if maturation is the right word.
 
Here's my average schedule for an ale.

3 Weeks Primary
2 Weeks Carbonation in bottles
2 Weeks Cool Conditioning

Then for a true lager

3 Weeks Primary
4-6 Weeks Lagering outside in a shed in a secondary.
2 Weeks Carbonation



So I go for longer bulk conditioning time. I don't know of maturation is the right word.

I might give it a go to see if it makes any difference as I prefer to free ferment without any temp control. Although it may kill me with anticipation as here's my schedule for my last two ales

4 days primary
3 days carbonation in bottles
cold conditioning - what the feck's that?!
 
I might give it a go to see if it makes any difference as I prefer to free ferment without any temp control. Although it may kill me with anticipation as here's my schedule for my last two ales

4 days primary
3 days carbonation in bottles
cold conditioning - what the feck's that?!


I used to have a similar schedule, mainly picked up from beer kit instructions and the like. Then I adopted the 3-2-2 rule because I didn't feel that my beer tasted as good as it could.

There are a few variations on it like the 2-2-2 rule. I went for 3-2-2 to maximise contact time with the yeast in the primary so everything gets cleaned up.Mainly because the temperature fluctuates a lot in the house.

The sooner I started forgetting about it, the better it tasted.

It could easily be shortened by oxygenating wort with an air stone, pitching exactly the right amount of yeast and controlling fermentation temperatures.
 
I used to have a similar schedule, mainly picked up from beer kit instructions and the like. Then I adopted the 3-2-2 rule because I didn't feel that my beer tasted as good as it could.

There are a few variations on it like the 2-2-2 rule. I went for 3-2-2 to maximise contact time with the yeast in the primary so everything gets cleaned up.Mainly because the temperature fluctuates a lot in the house.

The sooner I started forgetting about it, the better it tasted.

My brewing corner in the kitchen is fairly stable but I have no patience when it comes to waiting for my beer to be ready. So with most of my beers I've now more or less perfected a system that priorities fast turn around (I use fast fermenting yeast, low OG's and the styles I brew are meant to be drunk young, etc)
 
My brewing corner in the kitchen is fairly stable but I have no patience when it comes to waiting for my beer to be ready. So with most of my beers I've now more or less perfected a system that priorities fast turn around (I use fast fermenting yeast, low OG's and the styles I brew are meant to be drunk young, etc)

A well considered approach. I also adapt my schedule depending on OG, style and yeast.

As you rightly point out, lower OG beers need less time. Yeast has a shorter growth phase (depending on pitching rates).

So for you, things like Witbier, Hefe, Mild, IPA, and light pseudo lagers are all quite suitable.

IPA in particular benefits from less conditioning time, as the longer you wait the more hop aroma you lose.

It's certainly not all black and white, and my technique isn't necessarily better than anyone elses. I just find that it's what works for me.
 
A well considered approach. I also adapt my schedule depending on OG, style and yeast.

As you rightly point out, lower OG beers need less time. Yeast has a shorter growth phase (depending on pitching rates).

So for you, things like Witbier, Hefe, Mild, IPA, and light pseudo lagers are all quite suitable.

IPA in particular benefits from less conditioning time, as the longer you wait the more hop aroma you lose.

It's certainly not all black and white, and my technique isn't necessarily better than anyone elses. I just find that it's what works for me.

I do bitters and light ales doing this fast turn around method. Your right, one method isnt necesserily better than another but I find it very interesting to find out what methods others are using and perhaps adopt/adapt them to my brew house
 
One of the other things I learned from the podcast was that the lower the temperature of a cold crash the better it is at dropping haze forming particles out of solution and the better for beer stability.

He said a day at -1°C was better than 3 weeks at 3°C. The lower temperature will precipitate stuff that will stay in solution at a slightly higher temperature, no matter how long it is left for.

Personally I don't mind a bit of haze and I drink most of my beer fairly young but I thought that was interesting nonetheless.
 
Another interesting thing I read about lagers and pseudo lagers was a guy who fermented a lager using WLP001 or its WYeast equivant at normal ale temps (about 18C iirc) then lagered it for four months. The beer was so good it scored highly in several comps and was praised for it's clean lager like character
 
Hmmmm!

What is "reassuringly expensive" in the UK is one of the cheapest brews available in France so for me, using Stella as a yardstick for what is or isn't good in a lager is like using dog-**** as a yardstick for perfume.

However, I do appreciate that nowadays, even at home, we have much more control over our brews than in the past, so the practice of cooling the brew for long periods of time ("lagering") may now be redundant.

I can also see the logic behind "... a day at -1°C was better than 3 weeks at 3°C ..." so I think I will see just how cold my fridge will go and try that out to see what happens.

Thanks for the Thread. Very thought provoking! :thumb:
 
Hmmmm!

What is "reassuringly expensive" in the UK is one of the cheapest brews available in France so for me, using Stella as a yardstick for what is or isn't good in a lager is like using dog-**** as a yardstick for perfume.

However, I do appreciate that nowadays, even at home, we have much more control over our brews than in the past, so the practice of cooling the brew for long periods of time ("lagering") may now be redundant.

I can also see the logic behind "... a day at -1°C was better than 3 weeks at 3°C ..." so I think I will see just how cold my fridge will go and try that out to see what happens.

Thanks for the Thread. Very thought provoking! :thumb:
Just popped down to my brewfridge in the mancave and lowered my lagering Austrian style brew to -1degC, so we'll be able to compare notes very soon :thumb:

I'm hoping for something a bit better than "Reassuringly expensive" dog ****.....that stuff gives me a nasty headache on just one pint.
 
Just popped down to my brewfridge in the mancave and lowered my lagering Austrian style brew to -1degC, so we'll be able to compare notes very soon :thumb:

I'm hoping for something a bit better than "Reassuringly expensive" dog ****.....that stuff gives me a nasty headache on just one pint.

I tried this to lager a kit brew but made with saflager yeast, but the fridge thermostat took over and it wouldn't go below 4 degrees. Still turned out great though fortunately
 
I tried this to lager a kit brew but made with saflager yeast, but the fridge thermostat took over and it wouldn't go below 4 degrees. Still turned out great though fortunately

That's good to know Poochops. How long did you 'lager' it for? I'm guessing you control your brewfridge with an inkbird. Have you considered strapping out the thermostat? (By-passing it).
 
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