Lallemand Danstar London ESB - anyone tried yet?

Discussion in 'Grain, Hops, Yeast & Water' started by Llamaman, Jun 10, 2018.

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  1. Jun 10, 2018 #1

    Llamaman

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    I'm planning on a Fullers ESB clone and assumed I'd have to buy a liquid yeast or harvest from a Fullers bottle-conditioned beer, but then came across this.
    It apparently even comes with an endorsement from John Keeling himself!

    Anyone tried this? Is Fuller's yeast in convenient dry form at less than half the price of liquid too good to be true?
     
  2. Jun 10, 2018 #2

    Llamaman

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  3. Jun 10, 2018 #3

    MyQul

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  4. Jun 10, 2018 #4

    peebee

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    'Taint new. They resurrected their old "London" yeast, which I did try decades ago but seemed to prefer the "Windsor" and "Manchester" (latter defunct - perhaps it will be resurrected too?). But that seems to be personal preference (prejudice? Naff southern muck.) as I don't think much to the flavour (lack of) of WLP002 liquid yeast either which is reputed to be the equivalent.

    I'm hoping for better luck with the "Yorkshire" yeast (Wyeast 1469). Bizarre behaviour (very top fermenting), but then the "Fullers" yeast does create cottage cheese-like flocs which is fairly bizarre too - I can't remember the "London" dried yeast doing this.

    (EDIT: Reading through the link posted by "MyQul" - No the dried "London ESB" does not form the flocs, nor does it drop out as enthusiastically as WLP002, so is the reputed same source for these yeasts really true? Does mention the yeast tends to finish high (c.1.020) but I don't back that up.)
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2018
  5. Jun 10, 2018 #5

    Llamaman

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    So generally not considered very good then. Shame.
    I'll try to harvest some from Bengal Lancer and 1845 (I think Golden Pride will be a bit alcohol stressed!)

    I see Fullers have also now released an unfiltered London Pride in cans - I wonder if it's also can conditioned?
     
  6. Jun 10, 2018 #6

    Gunge

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    I tried it just the once a couple of years ago. It was like Windsor on a very bad-tempered day.
     
  7. Jun 10, 2018 #7

    peebee

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    Not my words, London ESB yeast does get good reviews. I just have a preference for something a bit less subtle.

    I'm not convinced 1845 uses the same yeast as Fuller's other brews? I was having much success brewing 1845 clones using S-33 dried yeast (that really does finish high - about 1.020) but last year switched to WLP002 yeast (reputedly Fuller's) and it finished at 1.013 and was nowhere near as good.
     
  8. Jun 10, 2018 #8

    Sadfield

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    I'm going to be pitching some later today into a low alcohol beer (0.5%) so the reports of low attenuation are music to my ears, hope it finishes high. I think this yeast is quite popular with NEIPA brewers for its fruity flavour and low attenuating properties without muting hops.
     
  9. Jun 11, 2018 #9

    peebee

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    "Low alcohol beer..."; that's scared everyone off!

    Never crossed my mind to try the "London ESB" yeast for my low-alcohol offerings. I've got "Windsor" earmarked for my next attempt, but can change that, as my "Nanny State" clone is getting a bit low now. Tell me how you get on; anything's got to be better than that murky US-05 stuff. I'll be trying for something along the lines of "Big Drop Brewing Co.'s" "Pale Ale" - the "Nanny State" has only reminded me how bad the older US hops are (the 4 "C"s, I've had to re-learn why American's serve their beer's at such frigid temperatures, this "Nanny State" improved no-end when I chilled it down to 5C).
     
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  10. Jun 11, 2018 #10

    Sadfield

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    Windsor would be a very good option, I imagine. I was surprised that BD recommend an american Ale yeast, too clean and attenuating. I used WLP028 Scottish yeast last time, which worked quite well, but think dry yeast is easier to judge the small pitch needed.

    Really want to try the Big Drop beers as I'm not a fan of Nanny State, although more for the odd roastiness from the Amber and Chocolate than C hops. My last brew had Bobek, Wai-iti and Riwaka in it, all low alpha hops to maximise flavour over bitterness throughout the boil, but I've actually added some C-hops to this one at flame out and will do a dry hop too (Citra, Cascade), too lift the aroma. Only because I want to do a Session IPA that is so low.

    I'll be looking at other ways to add flavour, other than hops in the next one. I see Big Drop use limes in the Pale.
     
  11. Jun 12, 2018 #11

    Sadfield

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    Had a thought on this today, that a very flocculant yeast may need some extra attention. As there is not much work to be done consuming sugar that there could be a risk of the yeast dropping out before its done cleaning up things like diacetyl.
     
  12. Jun 13, 2018 #12

    peebee

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    I wouldn't give it a thought, as you said not much sugar, and by the same argument not a significant amount of anything else either.

    That list of NZ hops you posted earlier looks interesting. I'll add them to my thoughts of the next low-alcohol beer. Wai-iti even mentions hints of lime for consideration in Big Drop pale ale clone (the limes aren't an obvious feature in Big Drop's pale anyway - good, I wouldn't want it to be the case).
     
  13. Jun 13, 2018 #13

    peebee

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    'Twasn't why I used dried yeast. I chose it for the reputed "built ready to go" feature. So added a whole packet to a 20L keg (skipped the fermenter bit) and didn't aerate. Worked fine, but US-05 yeast and "flocculant" can't be used in the same sentence, hence I'll use "Windsor" or this "London ESB" yeast next time..
     
  14. Jul 2, 2018 #14

    peebee

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    My next low-alcohol brew is planned and it will use "London ESB" yeast (the "Windsor" I had is 6 months beyond "best-before" date). I've taken note of your hop list and got 200g Bobeks (mainly copper hops) and 200g Wai-iti (mainly for dry hops) for a 40L batch (couldn't get Riwaka). I'm using whole hops because my copper isn't geared up for pellets and the pellets were all 2016 stock anyway. 1Kg of grain in 40L, split equally between Lt. Munich, Caramalt, Light Crystal and Wheat Malt (no Pale, they'll all self-convert or just need steeping). 0.5ABV, 35IBU … ish. No limes for this "Big Drop Pale" clone attempt - I'm happy with the suggestion that Wai-iti has lime-like notes. Perhaps 250g Lactose.

    Should be different from the Nanny State clone. Mash 40 mins at 69C (5L water), very minimal (no?) sparge, Top-up and boil for 30 mins, most Bobeks for full duration, some for 5 mins, some steeped. Ferment in serving containers (Corny kegs) under 12-15psi pressure with dry hops. Remove dry hop baskets and re-pressure. Should be drinkable after 7-10 days. It's fun coming up with these minimalist methods for churning out low-alcohol stuff.
     
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  15. Jul 2, 2018 #15

    Sadfield

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    Nice malt bill, I've used similar with Rye malt instead of wheat. Hope you like the hops.

    Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk
     
  16. Jul 3, 2018 #16

    stz

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    Used it a fair few times. Very similar to windsor in behaviour and profile. Aggressive, finishes higher, slightly less esters, throws sulphur but cleans up, never drops in tank, but eventually does in package, quicker than windsor anyway. It does a job, but I'm not that keen on beers which finish at 16-22!

    Basically it'll ferment an average gravity wort inside of 36 hours. Afterwards it'll stink like sulphur, but this conditions out. You chill it, but good luck getting cell counts of less than 20*10^6 even after 4 days which really makes the rapid fermentation a moot point. Viability is usually 30-60% at this point which is not so good. It does drop bright in package given some time though, but it seems to be designed for filtering and fining unless you are happy packaging soup. Terrible for bottle conditioning as a result.

    Personally find that packaging at such high FG is not particularly great practice? Plenty of things will eventually eat what remains. High cell counts drag out significant hop oils.
     
  17. Jul 3, 2018 #17

    Clint

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    Excuse my question...how do you make a low alcohol beer?
     
  18. Jul 3, 2018 #18

    Sadfield

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    Use a lot less grain to make the least fermentable wort possible, is the simplest of answers. An OG of 1.007 will ferment out to around 0.5%. After that, it's a case of using every option available to maximise body and flavour. Mashing high and for less time, with 40-50% Crystal malts will increase sweetness and body. Malts like Munich, Aromatic and Amber instead of Pale malt will enhance flavour, whilst Wheat, Oats and Rye can add to the texture. Low attenuating yeasts also help.

    The real challenge is hopping, getting definable flavour that will stay in the beer without the beer going too bitter or tasting like a raw hop tea, due to the lack of sweetness to balance them out.

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    Last edited: Jul 3, 2018
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  19. Jul 4, 2018 #19

    peebee

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    I guess you're asking for a friend? Can't imagine you'd willingly dint your own reputation?


    "Sadfield" has more experience at this than me, I can still learn from his reply. But I can add: Munich Malt is great because it has enough diastatic activity to self convert (just itself, not much else). Aromatic Malt I'm not sure about, but Amber Malt needs something (like Pale Malt, or Munich Malt if quantity is very small) to convert it. Caramalt is effectively a very light Crystal Malt, hence the grain bill I wrote out above is 50% crystal. A lot of people cut their teeth on the published "Nanny State" clone (I did - DIYDog #32) but that probably falls into "Sadfield's" "raw hop tea" description - good starter but a bit rough. There is still a lot of room for getting it just right - for me its fermenting (and dry hopping) in the serving keg using "spunding" valves as it avoids adding priming sugar for CO2 conditioning (when trying to keep ABV below 0.5% priming becomes a significant contributor to ABV). Methods for bottling look a bit of a challenge so I avoid it.

    Big Drop's Pale Ale is a good example of getting it right.
     
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  20. Jul 4, 2018 #20

    Sadfield

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    Yes, sorry, Amber will need another malt to convert.

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