Late Hopping - advice needed please

[bobukbrewer]

My last brew had 5 gm summit hops boiled for 60 minutes, with 100 gm cascade hops for the last 2 minutes. Still short on aroma and overly bitter. Would removing the cascade hops at flameout help ? Is 100 gm enough ? (22 litre brew)

 

[Surfingobo]

For what style?

Most “flavour” in the really hoppy styles like Neipa actually comes from aroma I reckon. I would try something like 25gram at flameout and the rest as a dry hop.

for dry hop rate anything up to 16g per litre seems to be accepted.
I find I get more from 50/50 of two hops than a large single dry hop.

 

[Buffers brewery]

I stopped 60 minute bittering hops a while ago in my brews and enjoy the more subtle hop flavours from late additions, flame out additions and dry hopping.

 

[Clint]

I bottled a pale the other day that had a 200g hopstand at 76c and only 100g dry hop.
The aroma was incredible!

 

[The Baron]

I do very similar to Buffers and do not do any bittering hops at all and either late additions or if I want a hoppy IPA I just do whirlpool hopping and dry hops so as to get loads of hoppy flavour without too much IBU's

 

[bobukbrewer]

Clint - what is a hopstand - did you end boil, allow to cool to 76c, add 200 g hops and maintain 76c for a set time, or allow to cool.

 

[The Baron]

You can do what you like Bob it just means that you put the hops in and can either maintain the temp at a given temp or let it cool as the hops are in. I call mine a whirlpool but do not whirlpool(confusing I know) but they are really the same for most brewers just that some do a whirlpool with it.
I usually get my wort to the temp I want throw the hops in a bag or spider and let it chill for the time required.
If you do it at below 75c it will hardly extract any IBU's but from flameout to 75c it will add to the IBU's
A good way of getting lots of flavour in without getting loads of bitterness

 

[bobukbrewer]

Thanks Baron. Would a hop tea brewed at 70 deg C for say 30 minutes achieve the same aim ? I don't see why not.

 

[The Baron]

I would think so its just the same as a hopstand to me but I have never done one so have a go its the only way to find out what will and will not work for you personally as there is not one way that suits all
Ps you will get minimum IBU's from 70c and below so make sure that you have some bittering IBU contribution from somewhere or your beer will not have any

 

[bobukbrewer]

Baron - 10 gm of Summit for 30 minutes should suffice for a pale bitter 3.8% abv

 

[The Baron]

Use your recipe builder to the IBU's that you want as everybody is different on their amount of bitterness. I personally do not go above 30 IBU's unless the beer is very well balanced but that is just me

 

[Northern_Brewer]

My last brew had 5 gm summit hops boiled for 60 minutes, with 100 gm cascade hops for the last 2 minutes. Still short on aroma and overly bitter. Would removing the cascade hops at flameout help ? Is 100 gm enough ? (22 litre brew)

If the Summit are around 17% alpha acid then 5g in 22 litres is going to give you around 10 IBU, which is about the same as Coors Light - hardly anything.

So if it's "overly bitter" then it must be coming from somewhere else. Bitterness is caused by the isomerisation of hop alpha acids, which only happens above 80°C.

My guess is that you're chilling the wort too slowly, so the Cascade are spending a long time above 80°C which is causing the bitterness - in effect they're not being added at 2 minutes but 20+ minutes, it's the time above 80°C that matters. It will also give volatile flavour compounds more time to boil off, which will reduce the flavour.

So I'd look at your chilling process - and if it's not easy to make it faster, then I'd add the Cascade later. I might do something like 20g at flameout and then 80g once it gets down to 80°C.

 

[bobukbrewer]

Northern Brewer - many thanks. I do not chill the wort at all, so I suspect you have nailed it. Next brew I will cool to 75 C before adding 100 gm hops. 10 gm of cascade for 60 minutes will give be 8 ibu, so I don't need much more bitterness for a pale bitter style, as long as there is plenty of aroma in the finished beer. If I am still short on aroma, I will add some hop tea on day 3 of fermentation.

 

[The Baron]

HI Bob if you use the recipe builder like Brewers Friend which is free for 5 recipes(you can over write them to keep yours recipes below 5 if you do not want to subscribe) it has a predictor of IBU's for the different temps in a hopstand/whirlpool. I do not chill but just let my wort naturally cool to the temp I require then add my hops but as NB said if you say add at flameout especially with high alpha hops it may take a long time to cool down and the hops are exposed to IBU extraction for longer than you may want hence the extra bitterness as I have said use the recipe builder then add your hops at the desired temp and for the time you have put in the recipe builder and you will not be far off what you want

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Northern Brewer - many thanks. I do not chill the wort at all, so I suspect you have nailed it. Next brew I will cool to 75 C before adding 100 gm hops. 10 gm of cascade for 60 minutes will give be 8 ibu, so I don't need much more bitterness for a pale bitter style, as long as there is plenty of aroma in the finished beer. If I am still short on aroma, I will add some hop tea on day 3 of fermentation.

I would urge you to get/make a chiller (you can make one by bending copper pipe), it gives you much more control over this stage which as you are finding is critical to the final taste of the beer. I suggested leaving some for flameout because there are some flavour compounds which only extract in boiling water - one option would be to put cones in a bag just for 10 minutes or so at the end of the boil and then remove it.

8-10 IBU really isn't much - a typical bitter like Black Sheep Best is about 30 IBU. But you're the brewer, it's your taste.

And you need to clarify what you are looking for by "plenty of aroma". Taking that at face value, you're talking about compounds that are volatile enough to reach your nose, which are unlikely to survive even 75°C - you mostly get that from dry-hopping. And Cascade isn't particularly rich in those kinds of compounds, if that's what you're after.

If you're interested in the science of hot-side flavour, take a look at this - it is reasonably geeky though...

http://scottjanish.com/survivables-unpacking-hot-side-hop-flavor/