Late Hopping.

[JonathanMSE]

Question about adding hops at flavour that are intended to add no IBU and are purely for flavour and aroma.

I get that this happens at around 80c
So I chill as quickly as I can.

But do I stop chilling at 80c and leave them for a while?
Or do I carry on chilling to pitching temp? (Which takes about 15 minutes or so)

Will I extract flavour and aroma in that time or should I leave the hops in there longer?

 

[marshbrewer]

Personally I chill to below 80°c (as in just below 78-79°c), add the hops and leave (with the chiller turned off) for half an hour.

Then I resume with the chilling.

The idea in my head is that the wort will be cool enough so little additional bitterness is extracted, and also the oils that add aroma and flavor will be extracted. Seems to work well enough for me, as I'm not a massive fan of dry hopping.

 

[The Baron]

I do virtually the same as Marshbrewer.
Add my hops at sub 80C to keep IBU's to a minimum then leave for 30 minutes and let the wort freefall in temp from there.
It also works for me
Ps when I do a dry hop it is not a big one with this method if at all

 

[Harbey]

I take no credit for the following copied from one of my threads where @Hazelwood Brewery gave the following advice;

The whirlpool temperature is often quoted as around 80C but there is a difference at different temperatures just as there is with the mash temperature.
90C favours fruity notes,
80C favours floral,
70C favours woody/spicy.

At 90C you will get about half the IBUs as a boil for the same duration.
At 80C about quarter.
At 70C about 10%

Very useful I found

 

[Hazelwood Brewery]

You can’t avoid IBU’s completely but you can minimise IBUs by reducing time and/or temperature but it depends what you’re looking for.

I’m generally looking for fruity/floral notes so chill to 90, add the hopstand hops, hold the temperature for 15-20 minutes, then chill to pitching temperature while the hops are still in the wort. This arguably gives a more complex flavour profile and if you wish you could have more than 1 stop, say 10 mins at 90 and another at 80 with additional hops added to layer flavour. Experiment and have fun!

For hoppy ales I add no hops before the end of the boil so the only bitterness comes from the hopstand.

You’ll get a little aroma from kettle hops but these additions are more about flavour. Aroma is boosted by using a dry hop addition at the end of fermentation, maybe a couple of days before kegging/bottling. Any earlier and the CO2 from fermentation will scrub (blow away) the volatile aroma. If you’re looking to maximise aroma, maybe smell your hops and use hops with a good strong aroma in the dry hop.

 

[Braufather]

i used to get my ibus through a 10 min or a 5 min addition, then chill to 70 for a big hop stand as the ibus would be minimal.

however for my next brew I’m considering a very small charge of magnum at 60, then getting all rest the IBUs in the hop stand.

either as above, at half rate at 90c or a quarter at 80c 20 mins depending of hop quantities to hand.

i only thought this effected ibus, the effect on flavours is news to me! Anymore more details on that?

i was leaning to 80 as it would mean more hops plus my pump can operate at that temp, but I’d be after fruity flavours so maybe 90 better? I’ve had great results in terms of a fruity Punch at 75c though?

 

[marshbrewer]

I can see I'm going to have to do some experiments! I always thought that over 80°c, the hop oils that contribute to flavour were lost; having the ability to vary the prominent flavour by temperature of the rest is really interesting.

 

[Hazelwood Brewery]

There are lots of flavour compounds in hops, some are volatile (oils) and they drift off as vapour at higher temperatures, some are bound-thiols that are non-volatile and so unaffected by the heat. These bound-thiols survive through the hopstand and remain in your beer along with a smaller amount of oils.

 

[hoppyscotty]

I used to do hop stands at about 70 degrees after reading up about the volatiles being driven off over the 15 - 20 minute or so steep time. I now use a hop missile, so chill to 80 - 70 degrees then pump through hop missile and straight into the plate chiller to avoid any flashing off of the hop oils and volatiles straight into my sealed fermenter (fermzilla). Works really well.

I run about 150g of pellet hops in a hop bag with a handful or two of rice hulls. Flow is restricted a bit but acts as a great filter to avoid blocking of the plate chiller.

 

[Druncan]

@hoppyscotty This is deja-vu,,,,,, As I was typing

I have been experimenting with a slightly different late hop approach. I use an Angel hop missile during bottom transfer to the FV. I have used T90's with rice hulls in a muslin bag for AIPA. I add 500ml of 60*C water initially(cooled from boiler) to break up the T90's then start the transfer. I then circulate using the side feed for 5 mins. It seems to add nice floral flavour. Next batch is Helles lager with 100g Lubin /60l brew. Hoping for light floral with no added IBU's

 

[hoppyscotty]

Interesting.

Have also thought about using my hop missile for recirculating dry hop with the fermenter. I have a Fermzilla 27ltr with a bottom jar and am usually disappointed at the way hops mix with the beer during dry hop. If I drop them in loose or via the bottom jar then they just sink to the bottom, or if I use a bag or tube then they just sit there with no beer flowing through the hops, so thought about the following process:-
1. drop all the trub from the jar
2. use a ball lock on the side of the jar and connect to a pump
3. connect the hop missile to the pump side and connect the output from the hop missile back to the dip tube side of the fermenter
4. then slowly circulate beer through the hop missile and back into the fermenter.
5. circulate as gently as possible for an hour or so, or even half a day, and should get the same utilisation as if the hops were sat in the beer for a few days

 

[Stu's Brews]

I take no credit for the following copied from one of my threads where @Hazelwood Brewery gave the following advice;

The whirlpool temperature is often quoted as around 80C but there is a difference at different temperatures just as there is with the mash temperature.
90C favours fruity notes,
80C favours floral,
70C favours woody/spicy.

At 90C you will get about half the IBUs as a boil for the same duration.
At 80C about quarter.
At 70C about 10%

Very useful I found

@Hazelwood Brewery - I'm quite interested in understanding the background to this; is there any material you can point me towards that explains why this is the case?

 

[Hazelwood Brewery]

@Hazelwood Brewery - I'm quite interested in understanding the background to this; is there any material you can point me towards that explains why this is the case?

Takao Inui, a beer development specialist at a Japanese brewing company, experimented on whirlpool temperatures and published his findings at the 2012 World Brewing Congress. You can only access the presentation by paying for it but the results (as replayed by me in this thread) are in Scott Janish’s book “The New IPA”.

 

[Stu's Brews]

Takao Inui, a beer development specialist at a Japanese brewing company, experimented on whirlpool temperatures and published his findings at the 2012 World Brewing Congress. You can only access the presentation by paying for it but the results (as replayed by me in this thread) are in Scott Janish’s book “The New IPA”.

Perfect, thanks - I got a copy of that book for Christmas but not got round to reading it yet. Might be time to bump it up the list!

 

[Braufather]

Takao Inui, a beer development specialist at a Japanese brewing company, experimented on whirlpool temperatures and published his findings at the 2012 World Brewing Congress. You can only access the presentation by paying for it but the results (as replayed by me in this thread) are in Scott Janish’s book “The New IPA”.

I think he is the same guy that pioneered dip hopping, which if nothing else, has lead me not to worry too much about hop trub in the fermenter

https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/dip-hopping.97936/

 

[Hazelwood Brewery]

I think he is the same guy that pioneered dip hopping, which if nothing else, has lead me not to worry too much about hop trub in the fermenter

https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/dip-hopping.97936/

I don’t know I’m afraid.

No, don’t worry about hops in the fermenter, it’s a good thing for hoppy ales. I deliberately add hops into the fermenter and pour the wort over it myself. This then allows the bio transformation of essential oils and for bound thiols to be released as hop flavour. This happens in the first three days or so of fermentation.

 

[matt76]

For hoppy ales I add no hops before the end of the boil so the only bitterness comes from the hopstand.

This is interesting @Hazelwood Brewery - when you say "hoppy ales" what do you mean? Are we talking NEIPA or would you also include West Coast IPA too?

For me, WC IPA (in the classical sense at least) needs that bitterness. I have one on tap at the moment where I didn't add any boil hops until 5mins. It's good but for me it's lacking that finishing bitterness so I need to go back to more of a bittering additional.

Interesting also to note that in the Verdant Lightbulb Recipe there is an early bittering addition (Magnum IIRC), and in his book Scott Janish talks about the benefits of bittering additions.

Of course this is all very subjective and depends on what you want to make to suit your tastes!

 

[Hazelwood Brewery]

This is interesting @Hazelwood Brewery - when you say "hoppy ales" what do you mean? Are we talking NEIPA or would you also include West Coast IPA too?

For me, WC IPA (in the classical sense at least) needs that bitterness. I have one on tap at the moment where I didn't add any boil hops until 5mins. It's good but for me it's lacking that finishing bitterness so I need to go back to more of a bittering additional.

Interesting also to note that in the Verdant Lightbulb Recipe there is an early bittering addition (Magnum IIRC), and in his book Scott Janish talks about the benefits of bittering additions.

Of course this is all very subjective and depends on what you want to make to suit your tastes!

Hi Matt, I should have qualified that statement I guess to say you should determine the calculated IBUs from the hopstand and only add bittering hops if the IBUs fall short. I often choose to add even more hops in the hopstand though if the IBUs fall short

 

[Braufather]

The recipe and video on another thread ( Russian river)underlined the importance of buttering in the boil for straight up west coast IPAs

But I guess a lot of what we brew now are maybe mid coast. IE not full on east or west coast but influenced by both.

Here maybe a small charge of magnum at 60 to help things along with the rest very late or in a hop stand.

 

[matt76]

The recipe and video on another thread ( Russian river)underlined the importance of buttering in the boil for straight up west coast IPAs

But I guess a lot of what we brew now are maybe mid coast. IE not full on east or west coast but influenced by both.

Here maybe a small charge of magnum at 60 to help things along with the rest very late or in a hop stand.

This reminds me, Experimental Brewing Brew Files 108 is worth a listen:

"Last time, we covered Drew's favorite way to use hops. This time, it's Denny's! We break down the two West Coast IPA styles we agree on before Drew throws in a disputed third variety. Just how bitter does an IPA need to be to be West Coast?"

For me the big takeaway is how, in a relatively short amount of time, just the WC IPA style alone has evolved from piney-resiney to maybe more fruity - as you say, infuenced by both the West & East coast styles.