License for tasting beer

Help Support The HomeBrew Forum:

Status
Not open for further replies.

RichardM

Regular.
Joined
Jun 17, 2014
Messages
312
Reaction score
146
Location
Cardiff
I'm not a legal professional, or Bar room barrister, one thing I have learnt in life is don't prod the tax and excise man. Find a loophole they won't thank you, they will close it immediately and you will be forever on their radar.
What if you charged the students for the beer you provide, itemise it in their costs of enrollment, if its only small amounts say a 350 mm stubby between three students not going to be outlandish. I can't see how that could be illegal.
It would be selling beer. If you didn't have a licence it would be illegal
 

An Ankoù

Landlord.
Joined
Feb 2, 2019
Messages
2,638
Reaction score
1,362
Location
Brittany, France
I'm not a legal professional, or Bar room barrister, one thing I have learnt in life is don't prod the tax and excise man. Find a loophole they won't thank you, they will close it immediately and you will be forever on their radar.
What if you charged the students for the beer you provide, itemise it in their costs of enrollment, if its only small amounts say a 350 mm stubby between three students not going to be outlandish. I can't see how that could be illegal.
Check out the penalties in case you do fall foul. Do they include confiscation of your equipment, for example? There's always some jobsworth ready to dob you in.
The situation in France is much more sensible. This is from brassageamateur.com:
La législation française concernant le brassage amateur est totalement absente des textes officiels.
On trouve ça et là quelques informations indirectes, mais il n'existe à ce jour aucun texte désignant directement la production de bière en amateur, par un particulier, pour sa consommation personnelle et celle de ses proches.

My own research would suggest that this is indeed the case as i haven't been able to find any legislation whatever apart from article 6 of European Directive 92/83/CEE. Selling the stuff, however, is an entirely different matter.
My point is that what can't it be the same for all European states? (Not that it matters much in view of Brexit).
 

Binkei Huckaback

Active Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2019
Messages
20
Reaction score
7
I think Richard is right in that homebrew is intended for "domestic" consumption". Either that or it's for "household consumption".

Although I'm not sure what the legal definition is, for example do "domestic" or "household" extended to, say visitors or lodgers, I'm of the opinion that it's probably kept a bit vague so we can as homebrewers brew enough for a large party without fear of prosecution, it's not easy to be 'giving it away' on a large scale and then 'finding' a wad of cash someone 'accidentally" dropped on the way out.
 

foxy

Landlord.
Joined
Nov 12, 2013
Messages
1,640
Reaction score
763
Check out the penalties in case you do fall foul. Do they include confiscation of your equipment, for example? There's always some jobsworth ready to dob you in.
The situation in France is much more sensible. This is from brassageamateur.com:
La législation française concernant le brassage amateur est totalement absente des textes officiels.
On trouve ça et là quelques informations indirectes, mais il n'existe à ce jour aucun texte désignant directement la production de bière en amateur, par un particulier, pour sa consommation personnelle et celle de ses proches.

My own research would suggest that this is indeed the case as i haven't been able to find any legislation whatever apart from article 6 of European Directive 92/83/CEE. Selling the stuff, however, is an entirely different matter.
My point is that what can't it be the same for all European states? (Not that it matters much in view of Brexit).
Why on earth would they confiscate equipment when all you are doing is distrubuting the Sierra Nevada, Anchor steam and what ever beer the students have paid for in their enrollment?
 

foxy

Landlord.
Joined
Nov 12, 2013
Messages
1,640
Reaction score
763
I think Richard is right in that homebrew is intended for "domestic" consumption". Either that or it's for "household consumption".

Although I'm not sure what the legal definition is, for example do "domestic" or "household" extended to, say visitors or lodgers, I'm of the opinion that it's probably kept a bit vague so we can as homebrewers brew enough for a large party without fear of prosecution, it's not easy to be 'giving it away' on a large scale and then 'finding' a wad of cash someone 'accidentally" dropped on the way out.
He isn't talking about selling homebrew! He is talking about giving commercial beers for examples as I suggested if it was itemised on enrollment that the cost of the commercial beers were born by the students. Read the OP.
 

RichardM

Regular.
Joined
Jun 17, 2014
Messages
312
Reaction score
146
Location
Cardiff
He isn't talking about selling homebrew! He is talking about giving commercial beers for examples as I suggested if it was itemised on enrollment that the cost of the commercial beers were born by the students. Read the OP.
Homebrew is nothing to do with it. If he provides the beer and itemises it then he is selling it and needs a licence
 

foxy

Landlord.
Joined
Nov 12, 2013
Messages
1,640
Reaction score
763
Homebrew is nothing to do with it. If he provides the beer and itemises it then he is selling it and needs a licence
Why does he have to provide it? Delegate the students to buy the beers and give them the money they have paid in their fees. Simple.
 

An Ankoù

Landlord.
Joined
Feb 2, 2019
Messages
2,638
Reaction score
1,362
Location
Brittany, France
Why on earth would they confiscate equipment when all you are doing is distrubuting the Sierra Nevada, Anchor steam and what ever beer the students have paid for in their enrollment?
Oh, I see what you mean. Nevertheless, I can't buy duty-paid beer for resale without a licence.
 

RichardM

Regular.
Joined
Jun 17, 2014
Messages
312
Reaction score
146
Location
Cardiff
Why does he have to provide it? Delegate the students to buy the beers and give them the money they have paid in their fees. Simple.
Forgive me if I missed something but I thought it was you who suggested in an early post that he provides the beer
 

An Ankoù

Landlord.
Joined
Feb 2, 2019
Messages
2,638
Reaction score
1,362
Location
Brittany, France
I am building a homebrewing school with about 10 systems where people can take the unfermented beer home after the session. As I will be talking a lot about history of craft beer, i would like to give the students tiny samples of iconic beers like steam anchor, sierra nevada and possibly other that represent different styles to help them choose the style they’d like to brew. The question is, do I need a full pub license for that?
Hi Rafaj,
Why don't you contact someone who already does homebrew days and have a natter about the implications and pitfalls. I know Rob at the Malt Miller does these and as long as you're not in direct competition he might be amenable to putting you on the right path, particularly if you're a potential customer. I've spoken with him a couple of times and found him a splendid fellow.
 

foxy

Landlord.
Joined
Nov 12, 2013
Messages
1,640
Reaction score
763
Forgive me if I missed something but I thought it was you who suggested in an early post that he provides the beer
I did, but you said that would be illegal, so I suggested delegate a student to provide it and he is not buying it to resell he is buying it to give away. If I walked into a class with a six pack and gave them out how can that be illegal, what law am I breaking.
 

Spinningwoman

Active Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2019
Messages
22
Reaction score
17
I did, but you said that would be illegal, so I suggested delegate a student to provide it and he is not buying it to resell he is buying it to give away. If I walked into a class with a six pack and gave them out how can that be illegal, what law am I breaking.
OP could ask each student to bring a different (specified) beer in quantities sufficient to share. But in any case, it would make sense to clarify the rules and the cost of any appropriate license to do this. We often arrange paid for social events and have to arrange a one off license if we want to include alcohol. It’s not me who does the arranging so I’ve no idea what it costs, or how complicated it is, but I don’t think it can be anything like as complex as becoming a pub landlord.
 

Spinningwoman

Active Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2019
Messages
22
Reaction score
17
OP could ask each student to bring a different (specified) beer in quantities sufficient to share. But in any case, it would make sense to clarify the rules and the cost of any appropriate license to do this. We often arrange paid for social events and have to arrange a one off license if we want to include alcohol. It’s not me who does the arranging so I’ve no idea what it costs, or how complicated it is, but I don’t think it can be anything like as complex as becoming a pub landlord.
Ok, it seems it may be a bit simpler for us because we are a charity, but there is a process for one off licensing. “
Types of licences
There are two licences.

  • Premises licences: required for any premises that offer any of the licensable activities previously described.
  • Personal licence: a separate, portable system of personal licences that provides authority to sell alcohol. Personal licences are valid indefinitely and do not need to be renewed. A designated premises supervisor, who must be a personal licence holder, must be nominated for any premises where the licence includes permission to sell alcohol. In order to obtain a personal licence the applicant must be:
  • 18 or over
  • possess an accredited licensing qualification
  • not have forfeited a personal licence within five years of the application and
  • not have been convicted of any relevant offence.
To sell alcohol on your premises, you are required to have a premises licence and for at least one person to have a personal licence. That person does not have to be present on the premises to oversee the sale of alcohol, but is responsible for any sales made by other members of your staff.

Temporary Event Notices (TENs)
A Temporary Event Notice (TEN) is a licence to hold one-off licensable activities in an unlicensed premises. You are limited to a maximum of five per year if you do not hold a personal licence and 50 if you do. No more than 15 TENs can be given to a single premises in any calendar year, provided that the total length of the events does not exceed 21 days. Events covered by a TEN can only be attended by a maximum of 499 people and there must be a minimum of 24 hours between events.

The Alcohol Licensing section of the Gov.uk website offers information related to the Licensing Act and the application process.”
 

foxy

Landlord.
Joined
Nov 12, 2013
Messages
1,640
Reaction score
763
Once again he is not selling any beer, he is giving it away.
 

Leon103

Landlord.
Joined
Aug 12, 2015
Messages
5,568
Reaction score
1,817
Another thought is business use. You would need to declare consumption on the change of use.
 

Dutto

Dutto
Joined
Jan 13, 2016
Messages
7,190
Reaction score
3,800
Location
East Lincolnshire
...... one thing I have learnt in life is don't prod the tax and excise man.

.......... I can't see how that could be illegal.
:laugh8::laugh8::laugh8:

I worked in "Bonded Petroleum" stores and refineries for many years and I give you one example of how the Customs men can be remorseless.

A work colleague was caught in the theft of petrol so:
  • Not being able to sack him the Customs told his employer that they had "No confidence in the man working in a Bonded Store." They threatened to pull the Bond if the company still employed the man so he was fired for stealing.
  • The Customs then looked at how long the man had worked at the Bonded Site and multiplied his length of service (60 months) by the duty on a gallon of petrol (12.5p in todays terms=), by the 500 gallons he was caught stealing. According to the Customs this sum (£3,750) was what he owed them in stolen Custom Duty.
  • Of course, he was driving his brand-new Ford Anglia which was petrol driven, so they confiscated that.
  • They then took him to court for Non-Payment of Duty where he was fined and given a criminal record - but not jailed.
Needless to say, this man was now unemployed, bankrupt and relying on State handouts for his food and drink so we move forward two years.

The man found work on a new Refinery in the area and was employed loading rail cars when he came to the notice of a local Customs Officer who promptly told his employer about his previous conviction and went through the usual "We have no confidence in this man working in a Bonded Store." routine. Luckily for the man, on this occasion, the Customs people didn't make the threat of pulling the Bond ...

... but they did ensure that he only worked loading Black Oils (used only in huge central heating systems) with a Customs Duty of only 0.25p per gallon into rail cars!

"Don't mess with HM Customs!" is a mantra very dear to me!
 
2
Status
Not open for further replies.
Group Builder
Top