Mash thickness for hefeweizen

[darlacat]

Title says it all: what mash thickness is ideal for a hefeweizen? I used 3L/kg for a witbier recently, and it was difficult when it came to heating the mash to reach steps, and spargin to an extent due to the mash thickness. I have read examples of a mash thickness of 4L/kg (e.g. braukaiser) for weissbiers, but am worried that this thin a mash might reduce efficiency.

Any advice is most welcome!

 

[chthon]

A thick mash will reduce your efficiency much more.

I find it weird that you find 3L/kg difficult to handle. I would think that your total amount makes it much more difficult than the mash thickness. How much are you brewing?

 

[cushyno]

It depends if you're doing steps by adding liquor or by decoction. If you're stepping up by adding hot liquor you'll obviously want to start with a thick mash and thin it out over the steps. For decoction you need plenty liquid in the mash to take a decoction. I've read somewhere that a thinner mash (5L/kg) is more the Germanic way.

If you're stepping up by direct heating, then the choice is yours!

 

[darlacat]

A thick mash will reduce your efficiency much more.

I find it weird that you find 3L/kg difficult to handle. I would think that your total amount makes it much more difficult than the mash thickness. How much are you brewing?

I thought the general consensus was for a thicker mash (e.g. 2.5L/kg) as it's more beneficial for the enzymes and hitting target gravity?

I'm brewing 23L batches. 3L/kg was only a real issue on my last brew, a witbier, so am wondering if I need to thin the mash for a hefeweizen.

 

[darlacat]

It depends if you're doing steps by adding liquor or by decoction. If you're stepping up by adding hot liquor you'll obviously want to start with a thick mash and thin it out over the steps. For decoction you need plenty liquid in the mash to take a decoction. I've read somewhere that a thinner mash (5L/kg) is more the Germanic way.

If you're stepping up by direct heating, then the choice is yours!

I'm direct heating - what water to grain ratio would you recommend?

 

[phillc]

I use direct heating and have good success with 3.5 litres / kg for hefeweizen. That's for the mash obviously, before adding sparge water.

I have a Klarstein Brauheld system and find I return much better efficiency stirring the mash at regular intervals.

 

[cushyno]

I use direct heating and have good success with 3.5 litres / kg for hefeweizen. That's for the mash obviously, before adding sparge water.

I have a Klarstein Brauheld system and find I return much better efficiency stirring the mash at regular intervals.

@darlacat Phillc is talking good advice. Stick with it.

 

[darlacat]

I use direct heating and have good success with 3.5 litres / kg for hefeweizen. That's for the mash obviously, before adding sparge water.

I have a Klarstein Brauheld system and find I return much better efficiency stirring the mash at regular intervals.

Thanks - I think I'll give 3.5/kg a go for my hefeweizen next week. I'm also planning on mashing in at 40c, raising to 50c for 15mins, then 62c for 30mins and 70c for 30 mins.

 

[phillc]

I like to add the wheat first separately, let it have a ferulic rest for 10 minutes (promotes clove like aromas). Then raise the temperature a bit for another 10 minutes to add stability and proteins, although this can be bad for foaming behaviour (This why I only add the barley and adjuncts after this rest and at a higher temp).

There's some info on this page about ferulic rests and potential mash profiles.

 

[darlacat]

I like to add the wheat first separately, let it have a ferulic rest for 10 minutes (promotes clove like aromas). Then raise the temperature a bit for another 10 minutes to add stability and proteins, although this can be bad for foaming behaviour (This why I only add the barley and adjuncts after this rest and at a higher temp).

There's some info on this page about ferulic rests and potential mash profiles.

Thanks - that article is very helpful. Do you use all of your mash water when adding the wheat only for the ferulic acid rest?

 

[phillc]

Do you use all of your mash water when adding the wheat only for the ferulic acid rest?

Yes. I have it all in the tun, up to temperature and then add the wheat.

 

[darlacat]

Yes. I have it all in the tun, up to temperature and then add the wheat.

Thanks - I'll give it a go at the weekend. What's your preferred mash schedule/temp for saccharification?

 

[darlacat]

I use direct heating and have good success with 3.5 litres / kg for hefeweizen. That's for the mash obviously, before adding sparge water.

I have a Klarstein Brauheld system and find I return much better efficiency stirring the mash at regular intervals.

Well, I did this at the weekend - 3.5L/kg - and my efficiency went up 5%! No problems with the mash and the amount of wheat, either.

 

[An Ankoù]

Title says it all: what mash thickness is ideal for a hefeweizen? I used 3L/kg for a witbier recently, and it was difficult when it came to heating the mash to reach steps, and spargin to an extent due to the mash thickness. I have read examples of a mash thickness of 4L/kg (e.g. braukaiser) for weissbiers, but am worried that this thin a mash might reduce efficiency.

Any advice is most welcome!

This is what Palmer has to say on the matter:
"The grist/water ratio is another factor influencing the performance of the mash. A thinner mash of >2 quarts of water per pound of grain dilutes the relative concentration of the enzymes, slowing the conversion, but ultimately leads to a more fermentable mash because the enzymes are not inhibited by a high concentration of sugars. A stiff mash of <1.25 quarts of water per pound is better for protein breakdown, and results in a faster overall starch conversion, but the resultant sugars are less fermentable and will result in a sweeter, maltier beer. A thicker mash is more gentle to the enzymes because of the lower heat capacity of grain compared to water. A thick mash is better for multirest mashes because the enzymes are not denatured as quickly by a rise in temperature."
And no doubt he's right, but do you want high protein breakdown in a hefeweizen? And while a thick mash may be better for multirest mashes, if I were raising the rest temperatures by direct heat I'd be a bit worried about scorching. Then if I were doing decoctions, I'd probably want it slightly on the thinner side of average.
My advice would be to go with what works for you.

 

[darlacat]

This is what Palmer has to say on the matter:
"The grist/water ratio is another factor influencing the performance of the mash. A thinner mash of >2 quarts of water per pound of grain dilutes the relative concentration of the enzymes, slowing the conversion, but ultimately leads to a more fermentable mash because the enzymes are not inhibited by a high concentration of sugars. A stiff mash of <1.25 quarts of water per pound is better for protein breakdown, and results in a faster overall starch conversion, but the resultant sugars are less fermentable and will result in a sweeter, maltier beer. A thicker mash is more gentle to the enzymes because of the lower heat capacity of grain compared to water. A thick mash is better for multirest mashes because the enzymes are not denatured as quickly by a rise in temperature."
And no doubt he's right, but do you want high protein breakdown in a hefeweizen? And while a thick mash may be better for multirest mashes, if I were raising the rest temperatures by direct heat I'd be a bit worried about scorching. Then if I were doing decoctions, I'd probably want it slightly on the thinner side of average.
My advice would be to go with what works for you.

I usually mash at 3L/kg and was contmeplating moving to thicker mashes to see if I could improve efficiency. For the hefeweizen I did a thinner (multi-step) mash at 3.5L/kg on @phillc 's advice, and my efficiency went up by 5%! Question is to continue with the thinner mash... I wonder if the ease of stirring the thinner mash also helped.