matt76's Brewdays

[An Ankoù]

tube

I envisage seeing pictures of you bottling in a scuba-diving outfit, having completely flooded your garage with CO2...

Nah. After a good toke on the old syphon tube, I'd only go and get the tanks mixed up so "safety first"! Just been reacquainting myself with phlogiston theory, which offered some promise, but all a bit smokey. Back to the drawing board, then.
Now there's a thing. A drawing board could be a table up to which things (like beer) are drawn up. A bar top, even.

 

[matt76]

Ok. Your enthusiasm is infectious and I've got to experience this. However, I bottle nearly everything and I'll have to figure out a way of bottling in a totally inert environment. It won't take me long, I'm quite resourceful.

I was reading a thread the other day where it was more or less pronounced that oxidation of hop compounds isn't a thing because it wasn't a problem for them.

However my experience says it is - I mean it's so striking I kinda feel like I'm saying from scratch all over again!

But I think what's not really clear is what are the do's & don'ts - exactly how much can/can't you get away with?

I have a hunch that opening the FV to dry hop, for example, might be ok.

On the other hand, previously I would syphon to a bottling bucket and batch prime => loads of potential to introduce oxygen which I'm convinced will quickly damage those sensitive hop compounds (in my experience as little as 2 weeks after bottling).

I do wonder if bottling direct from the FV might be better in this regard - I even wonder if this difference in bottling methods could actually be one source of the great "oxidation is/isn't a thing" debate.

If you want to go further I wonder if you could actually modify my kegging approach and bottle direct from the FV under slight pressure using a counter pressure filler.

But to be honest (and this is largely what I ended up doing) if you're gonna go to all that trouble you may as well bite the bullet and keg!

 

[Buffers brewery]

Just a thought you could collect the fermentation gases in a few brewloons (I managed to fill 6 during my last brew - not boasting ) and use this to fill a good quality lidded fermentation bucket with gas. To do that you fill the bucket with water and fit the lid. Connect a brewloon of gas and gradually run the water out sucking the gas from the brewloon into the bucket until it's empty. Do a closed transfer after dosing the FV with priming solution then bottle from the second bucket with a brewloon connected so as the beer fills your bottles gas is drawn from the brewloon into the bucket. Just a thought

 

[An Ankoù]

I was reading a thread the other day where it was more or less pronounced that oxidation of hop compounds isn't a thing because it wasn't a problem for them.

However my experience says it is - I mean it's so striking I kinda feel like I'm saying from scratch all over again!

But I think what's not really clear is what are the do's & don'ts - exactly how much can/can't you get away with?

I have a hunch that opening the FV to dry hop, for example, might be ok.

On the other hand, previously I would syphon to a bottling bucket and batch prime => loads of potential to introduce oxygen which I'm convinced will quickly damage those sensitive hop compounds (in my experience as little as 2 weeks after bottling).

I do wonder if bottling direct from the FV might be better in this regard - I even wonder if this difference in bottling methods could actually be one source of the great "oxidation is/isn't a thing" debate.

If you want to go further I wonder if you could actually modify my kegging approach and bottle direct from the FV under slight pressure using a counter pressure filler.

But to be honest (and this is largely what I ended up doing) if you're gonna go to all that trouble you may as well bite the bullet and keg!

Thanks, but I don't want to have to buy tens of kegs. I probably have around 20 beers to choose from, some of them a year old or a bit more old, because I tend to keep a crate or half a crate of a brew and stash it away. It's interesting to see which beers improve and which deteriorate with age and its not at all down to hoppiness. Back in Poole, I used to rack from the fermenter towards the end of fermentation strait into a PB. The beer was frothy and tended to purge the PB anyway. The fermentation finished in the PB and carbed the beer without any additional priming. I'm thinking Along those lines for bottling instead of racking into another FV, crash chilling and then running into a bottle. One or two ideas already percolating through the grey matter. But, as you say, there is the "it's not a problem" issue. But if the bottled beer can be improved then it's got to be tried.

 

[foxbat]

Of course I've never left any valves open myself...

 

[matt76]

Thanks, but I don't want to have to buy tens of kegs.

Understood - what I wrote was my own thought process and reasoning but everyone needs to make their own decision what's right for them.

One compromise though is that (eventually) I'll have fewer beers to choose from once I've got through all my remaining bottles.

But if the bottled beer can be improved then it's got to be tried.

Absolutely. I will say clearly though that I've never had a problem with my malty beers, Stouts, Porters, pale lagers even. It's only the hoppy ones where I had an issue.

So it will be interesting to see how the Porter currently in the FV fairs once I keg it. I know it benefits from some warm conditioning in bottles so my plan is to do similar in the keg under modest pressure before chilling in the kegerator for drinking.

 

[UKSkydiver]

And yes I am that fastidious about keeping oxygen out. And yes it does make a significant difference compared to bottling (massive actually) to the hoppiness and how long the hoppiness lasts (for my beers at least).

and

Absolutely. I will say clearly though that I've never had a problem with my malty beers, Stouts, Porters, pale lagers even. It's only the hoppy ones where I had an issue.

To be fair, I think you already answered this, but you're not talking about oxidation in the 'damp cardboard' sense, but the 'quality of hoppiness' sense?

I'm all for improvement, but for me personally, that sounds a faff, but then I do not like, nor brew, hoppy ales, so shouldn't be an issue for me. Fingers crossed.

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

I do not like, nor brew, hoppy ales, so shouldn't be an issue for me. Fingers crossed.

Amen.

 

[matt76]

and


To be fair, I think you already answered this, but you're not talking about oxidation in the 'damp cardboard' sense, but the 'quality of hoppiness' sense?

I'm all for improvement, but for me personally, that sounds a faff, but then I do not like, nor brew, hoppy ales, so shouldn't be an issue for me. Fingers crossed.

Correct. I would split oxidation into two categories:
The first as you say is the wet cardboard tasting oxidised beer, caused most likely by being a hamfisted wally at packaging (or using a dodgy autosyphon).

The second is oxidation of delicate hop compounds - these seem much more delicate and while the underlying beer may be fine the hoppiness is lost.

The latter is the one I feel I have addressed by moving to kegs. (the first was addressed around AG#3 by simply throwing my autosyphon in the bin)

 

[UKSkydiver]

The latter is the one I feel I have addressed by moving to kegs. (the first was addressed around AG#3 by simply throwing my autosyphon in the bin)

 

[pilgrimhudd]

Correct. I would split oxidation into two categories:
The first as you say is the wet cardboard tasting oxidised beer, caused most likely by being a hamfisted wally at packaging (or using a dodgy autosyphon).

The second is oxidation of delicate hop compounds - these seem much more delicate and while the underlying beer may be fine the hoppiness is lost.

The latter is the one I feel I have addressed by moving to kegs. (the first was addressed around AG#3 by simply throwing my autosyphon in the bin)

Ha, I seem to remember moaning about my autosyphon at around the same time and chucking mine soon after.

 

[matt76]

Update: AG#78 Mk.IV Hurricane Porter

Well I think that's all she wrote... It's gone in 72hrs or less from 1.048 to 1.023.

That might sound high for an FG but it's pretty much what I expected - it's a hair less attenuation than I've had previously when fermenting this beer with MJ M36 and WY1318. The blurb for A-09 "Pub" on the Imperial website does indeed suggest it attenuates a little less.

(With hindsight, if I do it again with this strain I'll use a litre less water to push the strength up a touch more)

The blurb also says something about a thorough diacetyl rest so I'll give it at least a full week in the FV - not that I would package it quite this soon anyway, besides which I don't quite have an empty keg yet anyway.

I'm already planning to harvest the yeast for use in in my next brew. Interestingly, Marshall Schott was saying on the Brülosophy podcast the other day he likes A-09 in his IPAs, which is food for thought considering the lower attenuation and my penchant for lower strength session beers.

 

[matt76]

Busy day in the brewery today, starting early this morning with...

AG#79 English Amber Ale

This is a twist on my Hoppy Amber Ale - I've ditched the American hops and yeast in favour of EKG and Imperial A-09 "Pub" which despite being an American brand is said to be the Fuller's strain. Just don't mention the American and German malts!

(N.B. I normally use Amber malt, but today I'm using up some Briess Victory Malt I've had knocking around for a while)

15L tap water, 15ml CRS Lactic Acid 80%, 3g gypsum, half a Campden tablet, giving:
Calcium 182
Chloride 110
Sulfate 245
Alkalinity 114

1000g Golden Promise Malt
500g Vienna Malt
250g Victory Malt
250g Carapils
2.0kg Total

80min full-volume no-sparge mash @ 67degC

Boil 30mins:
5g Magnum 11.0% AAU 30mins
15g EKG 6.8% AAU 15mins
20g EKG 6.8% AAU 10mins
30g EKG 6.8% AAU 5mins
1/4 Britewort tablet 5mins

Whirlpool:
35g EKG 10mins @ 85degC (using up the rest of the 100g pack of EKG!)

10.5L in the FV at 20degC with another 1.5L crud in bottles to settle out and top up the FV later

Pitched 5tbsp yeast slurry harvested from AG#78 just before (Imperial A-09 "Pub").

6.1 SRM - Pale amber
35.8 IBUs Rager
OG 1.038
Expect it to end up about 1.011 and 3.5%.

 

[matt76]

Followed this afternoon by...

Kegging: AG#78 Mk.IV Hurricane Porter

I'll tell you what, A09 "Pub" really doesn't hang about - it really does ferment quick and then floc out HARD!

Having left it steady at an FG of 1.022 for a few days, I cold crashed for a couple of days before packaging this afternoon.

Bottled 4 x 500ml first, each bottle primed with 2.0g brown sugar.

Approx. 11L transferred to keg. Connected to LP line at 15psi. The keg is still connected to the gas but for now it's sat on top of the kegerator for a few weeks to warm condition before drinking.

Harvested the yeast cake - loads of it, several hundred ml! And it's weird stuff, so thick!

Colour = Very dark brown - black
Aroma = Malty
Taste = Ask me again in a month or so

OG = 1.048 (Tilt)
FG = 1.022 (Tilt)
Apparent Attenuation = 53%

ABV = 3.41%
SRM = 33.9 (Pale)
IBU = 26.5 (Rager)

 

[foxbat]

Followed this afternoon by...

Kegging: AG#78 Mk.IV Hurricane Porter

I'll tell you what, A09 "Pub" really doesn't hang about - it really does ferment quick and then floc out HARD!

Having left it steady at an FG of 1.022 for a few days, I cold crashed for a couple of days before packaging this afternoon.

Bottled 4 x 500ml first, each bottle primed with 2.0g brown sugar.

Approx. 11L transferred to keg. Connected to LP line at 15psi. The keg is still connected to the gas but for now it's sat on top of the kegerator for a few weeks to warm condition before drinking.

Harvested the yeast cake - loads of it, several hundred ml! And it's weird stuff, so thick!

Colour = Very dark brown - black
Aroma = Malty
Taste = Ask me again in a month or so

OG = 1.048 (Tilt)
FG = 1.022 (Tilt)
Apparent Attenuation = 53%

ABV = 3.41%
SRM = 33.9 (Pale)
IBU = 26.5 (Rager)

53% AA is very low even for that strain. Is it because of the 30% roasted mats in your recipe? You've done this before; do you find it sweet tasting?

 

[matt76]

53% AA is very low even for that strain. Is it because of the 30% roasted mats in your recipe? You've done this before; do you find it sweet tasting?

Yeah, I agree, it is low but entirely expected - I got similar results before with MJ M36 & WY1318, and also in my Stout with BRY-97.

Basically yes, it's down to the 30%+ dark malts - roasted and crystal. They add to the FG but don't ferment. More on this here.

Incidentally, if anyone wanted to copy the recipe but make it stronger I would probably say just increase the base malt.

It's more pronounced in my case because I'm deliberately making lower strength beers - 3.5-4.0% ABV is on the money for me. I think if one was brewing stronger "normal" strength beers, say 5-6% ABV, you wouldn't notice the low attenuation so much.

Do I find it sweet tasting?

Do you know what, I find the flavour really hard to describe. Malty and "dark" flavours - a bit of roast, bit of chocolate, coffee maybe, perhaps burnt sugar. I don't think it's sweet though - certainly it's not "bad" sweet like it's massively under attenuated and mysteriously finished 10 points higher than you'd expect. But I suppose it's "good" malty sweet of you get my drift - I think this comes across more as it ages and those dark flavours mellow

 

[matt76]

Talking Points:

AG#76 Hefeweizen

My hi-tech and zero cost Post-It note & pencil based keg monitoring system has so far been fairly reliable (@The-Engineer-That-Brews take note! ) but in the case of the Hefe it fell a little short. Finished off the keg last night - only 15 pints from a 12L keg but I suspect I've lost more than I realised to foam, and also yeast every time I shook the keg!

It didn't actually clear in the keg as @foxbat speculated it might but remained hazy and still very nice - but the yeast definitely adds something hence shaking the keg now and then to get it back in suspension. The only downside to this is I ended up with half a pint of yeast slurry on the next pour! The banana flavour faded towards the end leaving just the clove notes - still nice but I prefer it more balanced or towards the banana. I believe it's quite a delicate compound so I suspect the banana would have lasted any near as well had I still been bottling.

AG#77 Get Even IPA v3

Mid-way through the keg and really enjoying it. I forgot to add finings when I kegged it but it's actually cleared really well in the keg - you maybe can't tell from the pic but it's got just the slightest haze (maybe from the dry hop?) and is otherwise crystal clear. Haze was always a problem for me and even before the move to kegs I started to wonder if it was something I was doing at packaging - could just be luck or coincidence but I'm not complaining.

Imperial A09 "Pub"

While @foxbat has been writing about understanding his new Yorkshire strain I've been doing likewise with this alleged Fuller's strain. My AG#78 Porter is conditioning in a keg at garage temp for a few weeks, and meanwhile my AG#79 English Amber Ale has been in the FV for a week.

I expect low attenutation from the Porter but the EAA has been keeping me nervous. This strain seems to ferment fast before floccing out hard - so I was a little disappointed to see the EAA appear to stop around 1.017 (was expecting around 1.011), and the yeast to setttle out. It could be Tilt error so I'll leave it be for now and take a hydrometer sample at packaging.

Despite having set the brew fridge to 20degC it did seem to go a little cooler which might have contributed to the yeast floccing out a little early - in hindsight it might be better with this strain to start cool and let it free rise. Nevertheless, I've warmed it up to 21degC and given the FV a swirl - the yeast is so flocculant and stuck good and proper to the bottom of the FV but worth a shot. Having sat tight for a few more days it is still creeping along and currently thinking about dropping down from 1.015 to 1.014. I'm clearly not the most patient brewer but I'll sit tight for another week and let it do its thing.

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

My hi-tech and zero cost Post-It note & pencil based keg monitoring system has so far been fairly reliable (@The-Engineer-That-Brews take note! ) but in the case of the Hefe it fell a little short.

Nice one :hat:

 

[pilgrimhudd]

Had the Hefeweizen last week, apologies for my tardiness in letting you know.. Have to admit I found it a little bland, on first opening i got a big burst of banana and i thought 'here we go'! But it didnt seem to keep the aroma/flavour, I didnt get any clove. The beer looked fab, and it was perfectly well made judging by the bjcp guide nd very easy drinking but it was a bit lacking in flavour I felt. Perhaps it was the keg to bottle again? I was also really looking forward to this so perhaps I built it up too much!

 

[matt76]

Had the Hefeweizen last week, apologies for my tardiness in letting you know.. Have to admit I found it a little bland, on first opening i got a big burst of banana and i thought 'here we go'! But it didnt seem to keep the aroma/flavour, I didnt get any clove. The beer looked fab, and it was perfectly well made judging by the bjcp guide nd very easy drinking but it was a bit lacking in flavour I felt. Perhaps it was the keg to bottle again? I was also really looking forward to this so perhaps I built it up too much!

View attachment 56196

Thanks for the feedback, always appreciated mate The one I sent was bottle conditioned so it's not the bottle to keg thing

Best guess is it just wasn't fresh enough and I should have got it to you sooner

I think I had one of the bottled ones and it was ok, but like I said above, when it was fresh from the keg it's was smashing, lots of banana bread flavour and took me right back to Germany. But I have to admit it had lost this by the end of the keg - still nice but not special.

I still have some yeast so might give it another go at some point - I did really enjoy it, but right now I have too many other beers planned!

I would just need to sort out the crazy carbonation and maybe treat myself to a proper hefeweizen glass!