Money what it is part 2 how we got here and what it means

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simon12

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As in this old thread https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/money-what-it-is-and-where-it-comes-from.73668/ money is created by and backed by debt.

Brief History focusing mainly on the UK but its a similar story round the world.

Since the Romans went people used silver by weight as a currency and around the 10th century kings started minting coins to specific weights. Pound sterling got its name from a pound weight of sterling silver. Currencies then expanded to use gold and copper as well as silver all to the correct weight. Coins where frequently made with less of the metal than they should be mainly to fund wars on occasion soldiers were paid in tin coins no one would accept. Then came paper money banks went from places people paid to store there gold to places that paid you interest to store your gold as they could produce IOUs for more of the gold than they had as people rarely swapped the IOUs for gold. The government then created the bank of England so between them and the banks they could control the money supply and interest rates, despite this money was still fixed to a value of gold despite not being fully backed by. 2 world wars later and most of Europe’s gold had crossed the Atlantic making Europe's main currencies unlink-able to gold and very unstable. Then came the bretton woods agreement when most currencies became fixed to the dollar at a time the dollar was fixed to gold at 1/35th of an ounce and the central banks where given dollar reserves to make sure they could back there currencies making the dollar the worlds reserve currency. The rates currencies were fixed to the dollar were adjusted occasionally but generally all major currencies are still fixed to each other and in a secondary way fixed to gold. This all ended in 1971 when partly to pay for the Vietnam war the dollar abandoned any link to gold and all other currencies abandoned any link to the dollar. So from here all currencies are only worth what people think they are with no fixed link to anything at all which makes it far easier for the banks to pump new money into the economy.

Want does it mean for the economy.

It has resulted in an economy that needs continued growth and there are only 2 ways for the economy to grow and thats pouring more money in or making that money move faster, the low interest rates we have do both as noone saves money with near zero interest and its cheap to borrow forcing more new money into the economy. This has had a direct affect on housing prices (as well as supply and demand) as the boomer generation towards the end of there working lives saw the only place they could get a return on there lives saving was in property.



Due to this and globalisation the money makers are no longer involved in making anything people need or providing services people need but theres now a huge industry in moving this endless supply of money around.

It has created constant inflation which is really deflation of all currencies (and partly oil prices changing). If the money supply was fixed we would have negative inflation as more goods would come on the market all the time with only a limited supply of money to pay for them, also the government/BOE would not be able to set interest rates as it would be a supply and demand lending system so the more savers the lower interest rates and the more borrowers the higher interest rates.

So we are now in a situation where both the government and the public have huge dept. but we need more borrowing not just to pay for services but also just to keep the economy growing (and to lower the value of the £ to make the dept more affordable). In my opinion this is not part of a boom bust cycle and we are in totally new territory with the entire western world and China that we are in so much debt but the only solution seems to be more debt as noone will ever get in power by cutting significant spending.

It is the reason bitcoin and other crypto currencies exist as they are only printed to a set algorithum but is the £ only has value because people think it does bitcoin never had anything backing it. It would also be fair to say even physical gold has an inflated value above its usefulness and rarety.

Notes

Much of the issues stemming from this get blamed on capitalism which its the opposite of its purely the unholy alliance of the government, banks and the bank of England and totally against the basic concepts of capitalism.

This is my own thoughts with the basic gist of whats going on and I don't understand it myself as much as this may suggest. Its not been the result of any political movement or ideology and has just been how the world has gone and it would be impossible to find blame on any one or organisation as far as I can tell. I would have never written this if the previous post on money didn't get so much attention and I could carry on writing pages more i'm sure.
 
A very interesting post from Simon12,

Money is only real because other people think it is of value and without the concept, we really would spend a lot of time discussing the relative values of recently dug-up parsnips and animal carcasses.
 
OK, also, what actual, practical use is gold?

If we could capture a small asteroid made entirely of gold, say 0.1% the weight of our planet, how, exactly, would that help any of the problems that humans have created through their weight of numbers?
 
I suppose the question I am asking is "if the price of gold is $100 per whatever, then if there were twice as much, would the price still be $100 or $50 per whatever?"
Sorry to be quasi-philosophical in the Snug.
 
I reckon it would still be expensive as the people who control and own it would suppress availability to keep their assets more valuable.
 
OK, also, what actual, practical use is gold?

If we could capture a small asteroid made entirely of gold, say 0.1% the weight of our planet, how, exactly, would that help any of the problems that humans have created through their weight of numbers?

The price of gold would collapse from expanding the supply by ~3 quadrillion percent.

Other than bullion for trade/currency it's mostly used for jewellery and in electronics afaik, so I guess we'd all start wearing lots of gold chains and have shinier phones? :laugh8:

@simon12 I think about this thing every now and then, until my head hurts and I give up. A few thoughts.

It has created constant inflation which is really deflation of all currencies (and partly oil prices changing). If the money supply was fixed we would have negative inflation as more goods would come on the market all the time with only a limited supply of money to pay for them, also the government/BOE would not be able to set interest rates as it would be a supply and demand lending system so the more savers the lower interest rates and the more borrowers the higher interest rates.

I don't think having negative inflation/deflation is a good thing all in all. If you're currency gains value over time rather than loosing it, then people have less incentive to spend and invest it. It will often make more sense to stick it under your mattress. Less spending and investment means less businesses, less employment etc.

The ability to expand the money supply beyond how much gold you have also gives the government monetary tools to use to help smooth out the ups and downs of a market economy. Of course these tools are open to mismanagement and abuse, but all in all they seem beneficial.

So we are now in a situation where both the government and the public have huge dept. but we need more borrowing not just to pay for services but also just to keep the economy growing (and to lower the value of the £ to make the dept more affordable). In my opinion this is not part of a boom bust cycle and we are in totally new territory with the entire western world and China that we are in so much debt but the only solution seems to be more debt as noone will ever get in power by cutting significant spending.

The government has a huge debt in absolute terms but I'd say that's is predominantly driven by the response to the financial crash rather than any long term systemic trends. Labour produced a surplus and a record low debt:GDP ratio in their first few years in office, and even after firing up the spending a bit in the mid 2000's the debt level was pretty acceptable until the crash, and ensuing bailouts/QE.

As a proportion of GDP it seems currently bad but not disastrous, although I agree it should probably come down. Because so much of it is owed to the BoE, interest payments as a % of gdp are actually not bad and have been a lot worse. Overall though I don't see any problem with a country being permanently indebted as long as it is a reasonable amount. If the money being borrowed produces a greater return in economic growth than it costs in interest, by investing in infrastructure and the skills and wellbeing of it's workforce, then so be it.

Of course there's a question about whether infinite growth is a sensible goal, but if it is, gov debt doesn't seem the bogeyman some people make it out to be.

I am most definitely not an economist though, so happy to be show the error of my ways by someone persuasive enough :hat:
 
Barter is just impractical.

I was under the impression that money was barter. It's just an intermediary between exchanging like for like, or at least the relative values that we place on different things.
 
@Oneiroi one the inflation/deflation I don't disagree this system has advantages in this respect unless it goes to far. As for if our debt is healthy it all depends what I left out is part of how we got here is starting with the boomers they awarded themselves massive public sector pensions which where the 1st time benefits were awarded with the intent the next generation would pay for them generation X then deferred this onto the next generation as still we don't know whos going to eventually pay for it and every child born now has responsibility to pay over £50,000 of there share of this dept. The inflation part makes it easier but to get it more borrowing is needed, I am worried this is just getting into a bigger and bigger bubble. In my opinion the solution is not to pay back this debt as it would cripple the economy to much just to not spend a penny more that we get until it becomes very manageable.
 
Surely all paper money will eventually be worth... we’ll not the paper it’s written on.
Just printing more money won’t make us richer it’s the complete opposite. Think of what a £ would buy 20 years ago and what it buys now. Numbers in your bank might look good but there devaluing on a daily basis
Gold may not have any practical purpose but it’s been around for thousands of years ( and traded successfully )and all the gold there is today will be around in another thousand years. It’s also pretty much kept its value.
The Chinese, Russians and Indians have been buying up tons of the stuff which makes me think they know something we dont
 
Surely all paper money will eventually be worth... we’ll not the paper it’s written on.
Just printing more money won’t make us richer it’s the complete opposite. Think of what a £ would buy 20 years ago and what it buys now. Numbers in your bank might look good but there devaluing on a daily basis
Gold may not have any practical purpose but it’s been around for thousands of years ( and traded successfully )and all the gold there is today will be around in another thousand years. It’s also pretty much kept its value.
The Chinese, Russians and Indians have been buying up tons of the stuff which makes me think they know something we dont
"Kept its value" it was under £15 an ounce in 1970 now just over £950 its gone up over 6000% while a UK house has gone up only 4000% and wages 2000% in the same period this is more the £ going down than the prices have gone up its just all major currencies have done the same. Note many items like food have not increased anywhere close to this amount as supply and demand and improved production efficiency all come into it aswell.
 
"Kept its value" it was under £15 an ounce in 1970 now just over £950 its gone up over 6000% while a UK house has gone up only 4000% and wages 2000% in the same period this is more the £ going down than the prices have gone up its just all major currencies have done the same. Note many items like food have not increased anywhere close to this amount as supply and demand and improved production efficiency all come into it aswell.

So the obsession we have in this country to buy a house, we should all be really trying to buy gold ('cept of course you cant live in a lump of gold)?
 
the gold thing is a bit of a diversion in my opinion. it gains traction due to the fact that there are a lot of investors (speculators) that have a stake in it. so while it's true that there was a value in having our currency backed by something, gold is essentially as worthless as paper..
and we're so far down this mad credit binge that it's kind of irrelevant.
I don't think there is anything fundamentally wrong with issuing credit, but the problem is issuing it with no defined use as it means you can get a loan to invest (speculate) in already existing assets, and therefore drive up their value (increase the amount of money numbers that they sell for). if we took control of issuing credit back to government and issued it at low rates of inflation for productive uses, say creating factories, investing in machinery, schools, training, research, all of the new credit would be creating new assets and thereby counteracting inflation as there would be new goods competing for the purchasing power of the new amounts of money numbers.
the biggest myth, which is very hard to wrap your head around, is that government's can't just create money out of nothing. it's counterintuitive as individuals can't as it would devalue the currency rightly, but there is no real world reason why a responsible and open policy by a central government can't. look at Germany, going from a basket case to a country that could reasonably take on the world in a few years using this among other means... the whole "Hitler did it because everyone went super mad with racism" idea is very naive. the main thing standing in the way of this happening is the financiers of the world would be very afraid of this and conspire to attack the currencies of any state that tried this method in the same way that capitalist states wage financial war, and other kinds, against socialist ones. which is pretty un capitalist, but then those words don't have much real world meaning. there is no socialist country or capitalist country, there are just places where people dominate other people through differing methods. the supposed rules are never played by.
people, I don't think ye fellow brethren of the beer will be a major force for the revolution, but understanding this subject is, to my mind, the only means by which our society can save itself. understanding that the story that a political ideology giving us our wealth and development is bollollocks, and everything we have is from technology and ideas and the ingenuity and work of us all, and money is (should be) just a tool to effectively organise this group activity for the benefit of all. if money was issued by an intelligent body, we could clean up the world and explore the Galaxy, if it's given to the elite gamblers then we will lose it all to the casino... simple as that.
problem is that the gangsters and grifters usually keep going until they fall.
and while this is all frustrating as fook to think about as an impotent nobody, I have a recipe for a few great beers that make it all better.
apologies if the spelling is mad, but I ranted too long to read all that nonsense over again.
 
the gold thing is a bit of a diversion in my opinion. it gains traction due to the fact that there are a lot of investors (speculators) that have a stake in it. so while it's true that there was a value in having our currency backed by something, gold is essentially as worthless as paper..
and we're so far down this mad credit binge that it's kind of irrelevant.
I don't think there is anything fundamentally wrong with issuing credit, but the problem is issuing it with no defined use as it means you can get a loan to invest (speculate) in already existing assets, and therefore drive up their value (increase the amount of money numbers that they sell for). if we took control of issuing credit back to government and issued it at low rates of inflation for productive uses, say creating factories, investing in machinery, schools, training, research, all of the new credit would be creating new assets and thereby counteracting inflation as there would be new goods competing for the purchasing power of the new amounts of money numbers.
the biggest myth, which is very hard to wrap your head around, is that government's can't just create money out of nothing. it's counterintuitive as individuals can't as it would devalue the currency rightly, but there is no real world reason why a responsible and open policy by a central government can't. look at Germany, going from a basket case to a country that could reasonably take on the world in a few years using this among other means... the whole "Hitler did it because everyone went super mad with racism" idea is very naive. the main thing standing in the way of this happening is the financiers of the world would be very afraid of this and conspire to attack the currencies of any state that tried this method in the same way that capitalist states wage financial war, and other kinds, against socialist ones. which is pretty un capitalist, but then those words don't have much real world meaning. there is no socialist country or capitalist country, there are just places where people dominate other people through differing methods. the supposed rules are never played by.
people, I don't think ye fellow brethren of the beer will be a major force for the revolution, but understanding this subject is, to my mind, the only means by which our society can save itself. understanding that the story that a political ideology giving us our wealth and development is bollollocks, and everything we have is from technology and ideas and the ingenuity and work of us all, and money is (should be) just a tool to effectively organise this group activity for the benefit of all. if money was issued by an intelligent body, we could clean up the world and explore the Galaxy, if it's given to the elite gamblers then we will lose it all to the casino... simple as that.
problem is that the gangsters and grifters usually keep going until they fall.
and while this is all frustrating as fook to think about as an impotent nobody, I have a recipe for a few great beers that make it all better.
apologies if the spelling is mad, but I ranted too long to read all that nonsense over again.
btw I should have made the caveat there that Hitler was a supreme Cnut and the financial class has nothing to do with Jews other than that a fair number of them are Jewish, largely because racists wouldn't let them do a lot of other things, because racists are shitty and stupid.
 
the gold thing is a bit of a diversion in my opinion. it gains traction due to the fact that there are a lot of investors (speculators) that have a stake in it. so while it's true that there was a value in having our currency backed by something, gold is essentially as worthless as paper..
and we're so far down this mad credit binge that it's kind of irrelevant.
I don't think there is anything fundamentally wrong with issuing credit, but the problem is issuing it with no defined use as it means you can get a loan to invest (speculate) in already existing assets, and therefore drive up their value (increase the amount of money numbers that they sell for). if we took control of issuing credit back to government and issued it at low rates of inflation for productive uses, say creating factories, investing in machinery, schools, training, research, all of the new credit would be creating new assets and thereby counteracting inflation as there would be new goods competing for the purchasing power of the new amounts of money numbers.
the biggest myth, which is very hard to wrap your head around, is that government's can't just create money out of nothing. it's counterintuitive as individuals can't as it would devalue the currency rightly, but there is no real world reason why a responsible and open policy by a central government can't. look at Germany, going from a basket case to a country that could reasonably take on the world in a few years using this among other means... the whole "Hitler did it because everyone went super mad with racism" idea is very naive. the main thing standing in the way of this happening is the financiers of the world would be very afraid of this and conspire to attack the currencies of any state that tried this method in the same way that capitalist states wage financial war, and other kinds, against socialist ones. which is pretty un capitalist, but then those words don't have much real world meaning. there is no socialist country or capitalist country, there are just places where people dominate other people through differing methods. the supposed rules are never played by.
people, I don't think ye fellow brethren of the beer will be a major force for the revolution, but understanding this subject is, to my mind, the only means by which our society can save itself. understanding that the story that a political ideology giving us our wealth and development is bollollocks, and everything we have is from technology and ideas and the ingenuity and work of us all, and money is (should be) just a tool to effectively organise this group activity for the benefit of all. if money was issued by an intelligent body, we could clean up the world and explore the Galaxy, if it's given to the elite gamblers then we will lose it all to the casino... simple as that.
problem is that the gangsters and grifters usually keep going until they fall.
and while this is all frustrating as fook to think about as an impotent nobody, I have a recipe for a few great beers that make it all better.
apologies if the spelling is mad, but I ranted too long to read all that nonsense over again.
and I should add that I don't have a problem with small Bank credit to private individuals as it helps to smooth commerce, but there's no reason it couldn't be done by a government body, the profit going back to help the needy, and some oversight of irresponsible lending.
 
the gold thing is a bit of a diversion in my opinion. it gains traction dueto the fact that there are a lot ofinvestors (speculators) that have astake in it. so while it's true thatthere was a value in having ourcurrency backed by something, gold is essentially as worthless paper

but surely there are far more people speculating in bits of paper hence why we have such a bubble in paper money at the moment, and this paper money is literally made from thin air , banks printing more money backed up by what , I promise to pay is what it says on the notes and for every new pound made and lent they have to print more just to cover the interest ...
 
Gold is very relevant as the reason its used as an investment is its rare and can't be printed and therefore immune to inflation and on top of that people pay alot for jewellery made from it. Bitcoin has 2 of those things but as its useless as an actual currency its better to see it as gold without the physical value ie like gold (and any investment) investors only buy it if they think it will go up. Also what Clint said about if there was suddenly a huge amount of gold only owned by a small group of people is very much like the bitcoin industry as most of it is owned by a small group of miners who have the problem if they want to cash in the bitcoin they will crash the price so they need to carefully manipulate the price only selling small amounts.
 
the gold thing is a bit of a diversion in my opinion. it gains traction dueto the fact that there are a lot ofinvestors (speculators) that have astake in it. so while it's true thatthere was a value in having ourcurrency backed by something, gold is essentially as worthless paper

but surely there are far more people speculating in bits of paper hence why we have such a bubble in paper money at the moment, and this paper money is literally made from thin air , banks printing more money backed up by what , I promise to pay is what it says on the notes and for every new pound made and lent they have to print more just to cover the interest ...
true. but backing by gold isn't a particularly useful thing and anyway it's too late now. the American popular party came about discussing these issues. quite interesting. the thing really is fractional reserve lending, but as I say it's too late now. the focus should be on taking the power away from private lenders and back to the people through a pseudo governmental institution.
 
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