NewB Questions

[CptCaveman]

<tl;dr>
What are the key differences in terms of final product, between a Hopcat/Ace Microbrewery system and a three-vessel system? Why would I buy one over the other? What re the pros/cons of each?
</tl;dr>

Hi folks,

I have been helping a friend with a couple of brews and am going to invest in my own setup.

There are two avenues that are appealing to me at this point. One would be an electric setup using an Klarstein/Ace/Hopcat microbrewery the other that appeals to be is a system such as this 3 vessel system: https://powellbrewing.co.uk/product/50ltr-microbrewery/

What I like about the automated electric system is that you can program the temperature steps but where it falls down for me is in the sparging. It seems difficult to get a proper rinse going on because the wort stays put. Unless you were to combine it with other vessels, but then the value would start to diminish.

With the three vessel system, I like the flexibility and the clean sequencing it allows - but with the gas burners, temperature control wouldn't be as precise, the mash tun isn't heated and it would be difficult to perform a stepped temperature mash.

What I lack is the experience to know what the relative impact of these various factors is. For example, would I be precluded from brewing various styles without the ability to do a proper sparge etc.

In particular, I wonder could people provide opinions on the following:
1. How important is it to have a clean sparging process and what is the impact on the beer and what beers could I not brew without it? By a clean sparge I mean that the mash is truly rinsed with hot water coming in one end and the wort going out the other (this would seem to imply the need for 3 vessels).
2. What is the added value of being able to perform a stepped mash?

Something I should mention is that I live in the south of France - I would like to be able to brew a wide variety of styles.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Dutto]

A lot of people on the Forum have the Grainfather, Braumaster or Bulldog set up and they seem to get along with them very well.

I have a home-made "three tier" set up that I thoroughly enjoy. I always brew in 23 litre (40 pint) batches with my own system so the system you have linked to at 50 litres is way too big for me. However, in my case:

• The HLT is actually an old plastic 25 litre FV with a heating element in it. As I usually require different Strike Water and Sparge Water temperatures the fact that it doesn't hold the full boil amount of 30 litres isn't a problem.
• The Mash Tun is a converted 32 litre plastic Thermos Cool Box. In the winter an hour long mash normally loses less than 2*C of temperature, I have never done a "stepped mash" as I have never felt the need.
• The Boiler is a standard 32 litre stainless steel pot with a home fitted tap. I don't have any filter on the bottom and just "whirlpool" the brew after cooling.
• The Cooler is again home-made from 15mm copper pipe and elbows which terminate in standard garden water fittings so that it cn be hooked up to a garden hose.
• For boiling the wort I use a 7.5Kw Paella gas ring that runs on Butane or Propane. (The one in the link you gave looks way too small to ensure a rolling boil for the wort on a cold, windy winters day; and if i did give the required boil I suspect that it would take ages to get there.)

I have modified my operation so that I "Mill, Mash start the Yeast Starter" on Day One and "Boil, Cool and Pitch the Yeast" on Day Two. It makes each day a pleasure rather than a working chore! Personally, even though I used to wish for a Grainfather or its equivalent, I would probably go for a "three tier" system on the basis that I have the flexibility of splitting the work over two days.

I always boil outside but using the two day system I can Mash and Sparge inside without the walls dripping with moisture so the set-up of my Three Tier System is now redundant. Here's a photograph of the system in action.

Enjoy! :thumb:

 

[CptCaveman]

Many thanks for this. I like your setup. Are there not inherent dangers of having a heating element in a plastic container? What temperatures can you heat to with that? After reading more and more, things are a little clearer to me now... now that I understand a little better the reason for various steps.

To me the main advantage I see with the Ace/Hopcat/Klarstein type system is that you can just lift out the mash rather than having to scoop it out. The main downside I see is that you can't stir the mash... although I have heard of a whirlpool mod that I may look into.

What I'm thinking is that I will start simple with the Klarstein which can be got pretty reasonably and then do some mods over time. Since it has a pump and, effectively a sparge arm, I'm thinking of rerouting the bottom feed outside the vessel so I can pump in from an external source for sparging.

 

[Bigcol49]

Hi!
I have a three-tier electric RIMS system. The mash tun is a tea urn-type boiler that has a pump to recirculate the wort over the element, which is controlled by a PID. You don't have to use bottled gas as your fuel.
With a single vessel automated system you are meant to lift the grain tube out of the wort and sparge by pouring hot water into the grain tube, so you must be heating the water in some other vessel.
Of course, you could do a full volume no-sparge mash.
The 50 litre system costs roughly the same as a Grainfather. For less money you could buy a Klarstein- type vessel and one 20 litre tea urn as your HLT.

 

[IainM]

You can do step mashes with either, though it is easier with the ace, and of course you can stir the mash with either, and I encourage it. To answer your specific questions, a 'clean' sparge is not important, and some brewers don't sparge at all and even claim their beer is better for it. You can always drain from the tap and put a sparge arm on the ace if you feel that way inclined. Stepped mashes aren't very important unless you want to reproduce certain German beers, but even then the traditional way is a decoction mash, which is possible with both set ups (and a pain in the ass).

In general, the pros of the ace are the small footprint and the recirculation. The recirculation gives better efficiencies and allows you to raise the temp if you undershoot your mash temp, without having to add boiling water and dilute the mash. The ace is also quick and easy, for instance giving clear wort by recirculation instead of having to do a vourlaf. The cons are that, compared to a three tier, it is more complex and you have electronic components that can fail and are a pain to replace.

Personally, I would recommend the ace, but you can make great beer with either; last year's NHC best of show was brewed on an ace, and people have been brewing great beer on three tier set ups for eons. At the end of the day, the set up isn't particularly important compared to your process, dialling in volumes, efficiencies, temperatures, hop utilisation, recipe formulation, yeast management, controlling fermentation temps etc...

 

[CptCaveman]

Thanks folks - the replies are really helpful. I think I'll go with the ace. Part of the fun for me is tinkering with stuff and I have a few mods in mind for the ace that I have posted about elsewhere (rerouting the bottom pump feed outside and splitting it so I can pump from an external source up through the re-circulation arm for sparging).

 

[private4587]

Hi Dutto if i am reading your post correctly, I take it you do an overnight mash. Do you loose any significant temp loss. I like your setup and would consider using one of my fermenters as a HLT if I could achieve a satisfactory mash

 

[Dutto]

A quicky.

Before I got the shiny Boiler I used an old FV and boiled the wort for an hour in it without any problems - apart from the time it took to get there which is why I went to the other system.

I Mash of an hour, transfer the wort to the Boiler (complete with the sparged liquid) and then cover it and leave it overnight.

Two benefits are A) It makes it a lot easier to split the work over two days. and B) The Mash Tun is properly drained and cold the next morning when I have to clean it out.

The one (*) negative is that the wort has cooled overnight and needs a bit more gas to start the boil.

(*) So far, I've not seen any detrimental effects to leaving the wort cooling overnight.

 

[-Bezza-]

As a question rather than a statement...

Isn't this idea of a "all-in-one" solution a misnomer? You still need a sparge water heater, so it's actually a 2-vessel system, right? So the difference just that you mash and boil in the same vessel, with a bit more accuracy over the mash temperatures?

 

[IainM]

You can cold sparge to little detrimental effect other than maybe taking a small efficiency hit. You could also up the grains or lower the volume and do a no sparge. For a true all-in-one though I think the original Ozzy BIAB method is the only way; mash, boil and ferment in the same bucket.