Newbie Pressure Barrel troubleshooting

[LogicalBrew]

Hi Guys

My first attempt at homebrew is 5 weeks old and I would appreciate some help troubleshooting my attempts to use a pressure barrel! :-?

For background, I am using a Wherry Kit with a Gervin ale yeast. It had 2 weeks in the primary FV (reached ~4.5% ABV), 2 weeks in the pressure barrel for secondary ferment at 18-19 deg C (with ~85g brewers sugar), and is now at the end of week 1 of cold conditioning.

So what's the problem? -> when I draw a small test glass off the pressure barrel, it rapidly stops flowing and then starts to glug air through the tap. So, presumably there is not enough pressure built up on top of the barrel but there must be some level of seal or it wouldn't glug through the tap? Out of curiousity and because I am still learning, I popped a CO2 canister in the top to pressurize the barrel. When I did that, I could clearly hear CO2 escaping through the lid. So, I prepped a replacement lid (from my second, unused, pressure barrel) and swapped the barrel tops over. In the interests of science, I popped another CO2 canister in the new lid and can once again hear it hissing out almost immediately.

My questions:
- how tight should I screw the pressure barrel lid on? How do I know if it is too tight?
- how tight should the CO2 valve assembly in the middle of the lid be screwed down?
- does it matter that the tight fitting 'rubber band' around the centre of the valve assembly is not perfectly smooth fitting?
- is it just normal for some CO2 to escape once the barrel reaches a pressure limit or should the CO2 assembly form a pressure tight seal?

These probably sound like really noddy questions and I thought that I had read all the various guides for correct fitting. However, I am obviously doing something wrong! :-?

Grateful for any help...

LB

 

[mgreenough]

Are you using vaseline on the thread of the lid? As that helps give an airtight seal, also just hand tighten to the point of resistance and then a tiny bit more. The seals easily buckle/deform if you overtighten.

Edit: also when injecting the co2 leave it in place for 5 minutes as the seal in the injector part will most likely be frozen due to the sudden burst of gas.

You will have some gas escape if the barrel pressure rises too much as the pressure relief valve helps reduce some of the excess pressure. This is normal.

 

[LogicalBrew]

Hi - yes to using vaseline.

I tried just tightening the top to the point of first resistance plus a little bit but that just made the leaking even worse.

 

[Godsdog]

Hi - yes to using vaseline.

I tried just tightening the top to the point of first resistance plus a little bit but that just made the leaking even worse.

Are they new king kegs by chance,as they have issues with the neck top,I know as had two of them do it,if they are you need to slightly sand paper the top of the neck rim and I would reccomend a cap spanner too
When you say escaping from cap dya mean from under the screw cap or through the injector valve BTW?

 

[GHW]

They can be fiddly. Mgreenoughs advice is spot on though. Vaseline (plenty) is good, especially if you have the flat style rubber o ring. I find on my cheaper barrel with the flat o ring, if I don't slather it in Vaseline it pops out of its seating in the lid as I put it on the barrel. The annoying thing being that you can't see this happen as you put the lid on (cos it's hidden in the lid). The only way you know is when it holds its pressure.

But over tightening is the main cause of problems, the o ring warps and doesn't seal.

If when you inspect the ring it's out of shape, soak it in boiling water for a bit. This will return it to initial state and make it more flexible, so it's more likely to stay in shape when you put it back in.

If there's no pressure, you'll need to reprime the barrel, and put the lid back on. Adding some co2 from a cylinder is a good idea at this point as it will avoid oxidisation while you wait for the priming sugar to be converted to co2.

Good luck. Keep fiddling with it and it'll probably hold pressure at some point.

 

[Godsdog]

The budget barrels with the flat sealing ring rubber in the cap rarely pose any problems in sealing the barrel,but on king kegs the cap with the O ring is rarely the problem as I alluded in my earlier post its the neck of the barrels and vasaline won't seal it,have had the same problem with all 3 of mine and is easy to fix
But as of yet we know not what type of keg it is

 

[LogicalBrew]

Thanks for the advice guys. The barrel is one of the basic ones that you get with a starter kit. I'll check the top and see if it needs smoothing off a bit - too late for the one full of beer though! I worried that I over tightened the first cap (and when I removed it the flat rubber seal was deformed) so I didn't tighten the second one as much and then the leaking was worse! I can't really tell where on the cap the air/co2 is escaping. I might have to cover it in fairy liquid so I can see the bubbles! :-?

The thing that is confusing me is that air has to glug through the tap when I pour beer - that implies that the cap is sealed enough to create a vacuum?

If I re-prime do I also have to warm it up again to re-activate the yeast?

LB

 

[Godsdog]

Thanks for the advice guys. The barrel is one of the basic ones that you get with a starter kit. I'll check the top and see if it needs smoothing off a bit - too late for the one full of beer though! I worried that I over tightened the first cap (and when I removed it the flat rubber seal was deformed) so I didn't tighten the second one as much and then the leaking was worse! I can't really tell where on the cap the air/co2 is escaping. I might have to cover it in fairy liquid so I can see the bubbles! :-?

The thing that is confusing me is that air has to glug through the tap when I pour beer - that implies that the cap is sealed enough to create a vacuum?

If I re-prime do I also have to warm it up again to re-activate the yeast?
another thing put some washing up liquid around the valve and even in the valve after gassing in case theres a leak around or in the valve,youll see bubbles if there is

LB

if you have 2 barrels check the spare by gassing it up a bit,if it holds steralise it and transfer the beer into the other barrel,from my experience the budget barrels rarely fault at the cap and over time start leaking from the seam underneath as they are pretty poor in dealing with high volumes of c02,if you do attempt to lightly sand the neck edge you need to get some fine sandpaper glue it down to a flat board and turn the barrel upside down on it and lightly but firmly turn the barrel left and right
it matters not if the cap is air tight as it will still glug O2 up through the tap to let beer out,like a vinegar bottle.me myself wouldn't re prime if its been in the barrel a day or two but would just gas it when transferred to another barrel
another tip is to put washing up liquid in and around the valve after gassing to test for leaks,you will see bubbles if there is one

 

[Racinsnake]

Hi - yes to using vaseline.

I tried just tightening the top to the point of first resistance plus a little bit but that just made the leaking even worse.

The rubber "o" ring makes the air tight seal not the threads. Try putting a cap on your empty PB a small squirt of gas and it will give you an idea how tight or not the cap needs to be, you might be surprised. Godsdog may be right but I'd advise caution sanding your barrel, I thought this was a problem with one of mine, I now have a PB shaped FV :ugeek:

 

[LogicalBrew]

.... I now have a PB shaped FV :ugeek:

Lol - Noted! I'll leave the sanding as a last resort!

Thanks for all the advice guys.

One more if I may - how tight should the metal CO2 valve assembly be?

 

[Cwrw666]

I've got a Youngs cheap PB - it holds pressure fine if you're careful, but another one I had was hopeless. Both barrels have oval shaped openings at the top which in my opinion is why they tend to screw up the flat rubber seal - you can see by the dents in the rubber that at a couple of points it is really close to the edge of the seal. Obviously if you tighten too much it just causes the seal to twist out of it's seat.
So when you buy a PB - screw off the cap and check the dent in the rubber seal and only buy it if it looks right.

 

[terrym]

The thing that is confusing me is that air has to glug through the tap when I pour beer - that implies that the cap is sealed enough to create a vacuum?

You are correct. The head of beer in the barrel is enough to initially let you draw some off until it can go no further due to the slight vacuum inside, and so then the pressure in the barrel and outside are equalised by air glugging through the tap to allow more beer to flow. I am sure you are aware you should normally try to avoid air glugging through the tap since it may spoil the beer.

I have filed off the slightly rough uneven edges on the top of two old PBs I recently acquired to make them completely flat. I used a very fine file and worked my way round several times in small steps. They are now gas tight up against the flat lid gasket. I would not use sand paper since it would not give a flat sealing surface.

 

[Godsdog]

You are correct. The head of beer in the barrel is enough to initially let you draw some off until it can go no further due to the slight vacuum inside, and so then the pressure in the barrel and outside are equalised by air glugging through the tap to allow more beer to flow. I am sure you are aware you should normally try to avoid air glugging through the tap since it may spoil the beer.

I have filed off the slightly rough uneven edges on the top of two old PBs I recently acquired to make them completely flat. I used a very fine file and worked my way round several times in small steps. They are now gas tight up against the flat lid gasket. I would not use sand paper since it would not give a flat sealing surface.

The idea of using sandpaper stuck to a board of some sort is because it is a lot easier to keep the barrel neck edge flat completely, everyone are not competent with a file and i think the high spots which are the problem are hard to detect anyway from experience

 

[LogicalBrew]

Once again guys - thanks for the tips, really appreciated. Seems like I should have put more effort into getting good quality pressure barrels! :-?

I'd still be grateful if anybody was able to answer the questions about how tight the metal CO2 valve assembly should be?

cheers

LB

 

[Godsdog]

Once again guys - thanks for the tips, really appreciated. Seems like I should have put more effort into getting good quality pressure barrels! :-?

I'd still be grateful if anybody was able to answer the questions about how tight the metal CO2 valve assembly should be?

cheers

LB

Quite tight as you have to compress the rubber washer,you won't over tighten it so don't worry

 

[Godsdog]

If you do get the brew bug invest in at least a king keg as they are a lot thicker in construction and will last a lot longer,unless you like your beer more sparkly as opposed to the draught in the mouth feel then bottles is the way to go,and lastly a corny keg is the ultimate for the draught experience

 

[Mickeywheelspin]

Once again guys - thanks for the tips, really appreciated. Seems like I should have put more effort into getting good quality pressure barrels! :-?

I'd still be grateful if anybody was able to answer the questions about how tight the metal CO2 valve assembly should be?

cheers

LB

You want it tight enough to ensure a good seal but don't overdo it as It is possible to distort the seal. On the plus side, at least you can see the seal as you do it up (assuming you've got the cap off).

Also worth noting, the valve locates in an oval hole in the lid - make sure you tighten the valve using two spanners (inside and outside the lid). I've seen people try and do it with a single spanner whilst holding the lid in the other hand. 9 times out of 10 this will result in the valve turning in the oval hole knackering the oval, burring the plastic and making a good seal much harder to achieve.

 

[LogicalBrew]

Hi All

In the interests of completeness, I thought I should provide a closer for this thread, in case anyone finds it useful in the future.

I think I have the PB correctly sealed and working now, so thanks for all your help. :thumb:

I didn't sand or file anything so no PBs were hurt in the making of this beer.

I dismantled the metal valve assembly and very carefully re-seated the bands over the vent holes, the one in the middle was both a little twisted/bunched and off-centre.

I re-assembled and tightened the metal valve assembly much tighter than I had previously, noting the advice to use 2 spanners, not just one as I had been doing!

I re-energised the main rubber washer for the cap in boiling water to help it reform the original shape and then refitted with a generous helping of vaseline on both sides.

The main thing that I did differently, I think, was to use a lot more vaseline on both the rubber seal and the threads of the cap; I was definitely not using enough before. I then tightened the cap to firmly hand-tight but no more.

Finally, having used a CO2 bulb to re-pressurize the PB, I left the CO2 assembly in place so that frozen valves couldn't provide an escape route for pressure.

Beer is pouring fine with no glugging and already tastes ok, 1 week into the cold conditioning.

Thanks again

LB

 

[GHW]

Hi All

In the interests of completeness, I thought I should provide a closer for this thread, in case anyone finds it useful in the future.

I think I have the PB correctly sealed and working now, so thanks for all your help. :thumb:

I didn't sand or file anything so no PBs were hurt in the making of this beer.

I dismantled the metal valve assembly and very carefully re-seated the bands over the vent holes, the one in the middle was both a little twisted/bunched and off-centre.

I re-assembled and tightened the metal valve assembly much tighter than I had previously, noting the advice to use 2 spanners, not just one as I had been doing!

I re-energised the main rubber washer for the cap in boiling water to help it reform the original shape and then refitted with a generous helping of vaseline on both sides.

The main thing that I did differently, I think, was to use a lot more vaseline on both the rubber seal and the threads of the cap; I was definitely not using enough before. I then tightened the cap to firmly hand-tight but no more.

Finally, having used a CO2 bulb to re-pressurize the PB, I left the CO2 assembly in place so that frozen valves couldn't provide an escape route for pressure.

Beer is pouring fine with no glugging and already tastes ok, 1 week into the cold conditioning.

Thanks again

LB

You can never use too much Vaseline.

 

[terrym]

Hi All

In the interests of completeness, I thought I should provide a closer for this thread, in case anyone finds it useful in the future.

I think I have the PB correctly sealed and working now, so thanks for all your help. :thumb:

I didn't sand or file anything so no PBs were hurt in the making of this beer.

I dismantled the metal valve assembly and very carefully re-seated the bands over the vent holes, the one in the middle was both a little twisted/bunched and off-centre.

I re-assembled and tightened the metal valve assembly much tighter than I had previously, noting the advice to use 2 spanners, not just one as I had been doing!

I re-energised the main rubber washer for the cap in boiling water to help it reform the original shape and then refitted with a generous helping of vaseline on both sides.

The main thing that I did differently, I think, was to use a lot more vaseline on both the rubber seal and the threads of the cap; I was definitely not using enough before. I then tightened the cap to firmly hand-tight but no more.

Finally, having used a CO2 bulb to re-pressurize the PB, I left the CO2 assembly in place so that frozen valves couldn't provide an escape route for pressure.

Beer is pouring fine with no glugging and already tastes ok, 1 week into the cold conditioning.

Thanks again

LB

Good helpful post. And pleased to hear your brew has come through all the hassle unscathed. :thumb: