Off taste help

[marshbrewer]

I seem to get an occasional off taste in my beers. It's hard to describe, but its like a bitterness that is reminiscent off, but different to, the Belgian clove type of character.

It never appears in my dark beers, but quite often in blonde / light beers. Sometimes, I get it in amber beers but it isn't as pronounced.

If a batch has it, it doesn't get progressively worse as a batch ages; nor does it seem to condition out. My palette is differently sensitive to it on different days, so one day I will feel it ruins a batch, and the next hardly be able to detect it until I've had several pints.

I think it's more likely to occur / be detectable in weaker ales and ales with a medium / low hopping rate. 8% 60 IBU historical milds don't seem to be effected by it but a 5% Golden ale might.

It isn't dependent on yeast strain or fermentation temperature as far as I can tell.

I treat my (very very hard and chalky) water with Phosphoric acid; I used to use AMS / CRS but need so much I thought this might have been causing it so switched to phosphoric acid, but alas it's made no difference. Interestingly, despite a water calculator set for a mash pH of 5.2, I actually measured it with my new ph meter last brew day and it was around 5.6 / 5.7.

What do people think, is it my hard water? I'm thinking if giving Tesco ashbeck a go (as is, with no additions or acid) for my next blonde brew to see if this improves things? Or do we think it is more likely an infection lurking somewhere? I cornie keg all my beer, so I guess it would have to be in my plastic ware somewhere?

All suggestions welcome!

 

[Hazelwood Brewery]

A phenol (4-Vinyl Guaiacol) is often behind a clove aroma/flavour. It can be due to underpitching, high fermentation temps, using yeasts that have this phenol in their make-up (hefeweizen, Belgian), or wild yeast infection.

 

[marshbrewer]

Mmmm... Seems odd that I only get it in lighter beers (can't be the first 3 as they aren't present in all the brew i.e. I've got it in a Cali Common that was fermented at 14°). Could be a wild yeast. Perhaps it's time to replace all my plastic stuff?

 

[Hazelwood Brewery]

Mmmm... Seems odd that I only get it in lighter beers (can't be the first 3 as they aren't present in all the brew i.e. I've got it in a Cali Common that was fermented at 14°). Could be a wild yeast. Perhaps it's time to replace all my plastic stuff?

Maybe. One other option is the grain. The husk of pale malts are an unusual source I think of Ferulic acid - the pre-cursor to 4VG. I don’t expect this is your source but if all else fails it’s a possibility that the batch you’re using is affected. If you’ve used different malts in different brews and had the same problem you can discount this.

 

[marshbrewer]

Na, this has been going on for a while, so that's several different malt sacks. It rears its ugly head, then goes away, then comes back again. I'm just getting serious about it now because its affected 3 out of my last 4 batches.

 

[Hazelwood Brewery]

I’m out of ideas in that case. Sorry. If you’re using more than one fermenter (bucket) I guess you could replace one and then ferment a split batch across the new/old buckets to see if there is a difference. This would help to further the diagnosis maybe.

Ironically, I’m often chasing that flavour and failing to get it!

 

[marshbrewer]

That's a good idea.

 

[JonBrew]

I'd say your idea of brewing you next pale with tesco ashbeck water is a good shout. I think if you you can rule out water then a low level contamination seems like a likely candidate. Although I would always expect that to get worse or more noticeable as the batch ages.

Another thought: What do brew on? If its electric do you have any scorching/burt on stuff on your kettle element?

Do you remove chlorine from your water and do you clean with any chlorine based products?

 

[marshbrewer]

That was kind of my thoughts as a brews worth of ashbeck is relatively cheap to use as an elimination strategy. Then I think it's a replace my plastics. Then panic!

But to answer your other points; I brew on electric using a Burco and the base where the element is I keep spotless. Due to my hard water that means cleaning it every time, and I've never seen any scorching, just hard water deposits!

I always treat my mash and sparge water with Campdem powder. Well, ok , occasionally I forget one of the two, but looking through my notes, me forgetting doesn't tally with the dreaded taste.

On a positive note, just cracked open a cornie of an Old Ale, and it doesn't have it! But then, it's the dark end of amber..

 

[marshbrewer]

Thanks for all the input so far though, much appreciated!

 

[Mash Monster]

Just wondered if other people have noticed your so called off flavour?
I go through phases like this from time to time where I detect an unpleasant slightly bitter taste in my lighter ales but others find the taste absolutely fine.
I have been told that I have a very sensitive palate as I can detect things like the very slightest trace of Aspartame and similar sweeteners in food or drink and find them repulsive.
This doesn’t happen all the time to me but when it does I just want to ditch the beer.

 

[Mash Monster]

https://www.thebrewenthusiast.com/blog/2015/3/15/beer-burnout-its-a-thingMight be worth a read

 

[Sadfield]

As you describe it as a taste rather than an aroma, and it presents in your pale beers, I'd lean towards it being astringency. I'd check your mash and sparge pH, which may be higher in grain bills without coloured malts. Could be that if you are hitting a pH of 5.8 and sparging too hot or long after in the pales, you could be drawing out tannins.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/beerandbrewing.com/amp/off-flavor-of-the-week-astringency/

 

[marshbrewer]

Thanks, that's really interesting, there is deffo no aroma. I've also switched to fly sparging recently (I used to batch sparge). So there are a couple of avenues to look at. Cheers!

 

[Hazelwood Brewery]

Astringency is more of a sensation/mouthfeel than a taste. If you run your tongue over the roof of your mouth and it feels dry and rough, that’s astringency. To experience it, have a suck on a wet tea-bag

 

[phildo79]

Might come in useful.

 

[Sadfield]

Astringency is more of a sensation/mouthfeel than a taste. If you run your tongue over the roof of your mouth and it feels dry and rough, that’s astringency. To experience it, have a suck on a wet tea-bag

Are you not confusing taste with flavour?

https://market-table.com/the-7-tastes-and-maybe-an-8th/

 

[Hazelwood Brewery]

Are you not confusing taste with flavour?

https://market-table.com/the-7-tastes-and-maybe-an-8th/

No, you don’t really taste dryness, you feel it. The dryness comes from the tannins closing down saliva ducts through cell shrinkage (just temporary I’m pleased to say).

I’m afraid the linked reference isn’t helpful for either of us, it covers all bases

“This taste…”
“The astringent flavour…”
“It causes a puckering sensation…”

 

[marshbrewer]

OK, folks. So the two most affected batches with this off taste, which I meant to throw away, were just left in their cornies in the kegerator at cellar temp (12C) since September (because I couldn't bring myself to do it!) have now evolved. They now taste pretty good. The off taste has dissipated lots, but it is still there (more evident after about pint 3 or 4). I sometimes catch a glimpse of it in some of my other brews, but its very slight. So I am at a total loss as to what it could be, as it *does* appear to condition out after all, all be it after 101 days, according to brewfather!

I am assuming an infection is now out of the equation, so goodness knows what it is.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

Beer line cleanliness?