Pale ale cloudy four days after bottling

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thehorse

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I know we shouldn’t get too obsessed about cloudy ale, but i’m not used to my simple recipe for single hop mosaic (partial mash) taking so long to clear.

On the left is the new bottle after four days in a dark cupboard. On the right is my last remaining bottle of perfectly clear mosaic pale, brewed to exactly the same recipe.

The only thing that I can remember being different is that there was a slight leak through the airlock when fermenting initially. This smelled vinegary, but certainly the beer I tasted when siphoning into the bottles gave every impression it would be fine.

It’s not really anything to worry about - although some of these bottles are going to be sold to friends to help raise money for my wife’s marathon run - I’m just wondering what other conditions might have caused this, and whether you think it should clear given time. All help much appreciated.
 
Is it really only four days since you bottled!?? The yeast will still to be working carbing up the beer. Give it chance to finish its job
After you think its carbed up why not just put a few in the fridge to encourage the yeast to drop .
Most beers clear eventually in my experience, you just have to give them time.
 
WAY too early to expect clear beer. It looks from the photo like it's starting to clear from the top down - the neck looks clear already, the rest should follow. Give it a month, if it's still cloudy then you've probably got cloudy beer.
 
Some other advice.
Don't use those bottles anymore! I take they are bottles used for oil and stuff? Water.
They are not meant to maintain the pressure of a beer bottle.
And they are clear leading to degradation of the hop flavor (skunk flavour).

If you want to use swing top bottles then use those meant for it, like Grolsch.
 
Four days? Seriously? I wouldn't even look at it until 2 weeks has passed.

I hate to come off all negative but just so that you know, I believe it's illegal to sell your homebrew without holding some sort of license. I'm sure others here can confirm.
 
Cheers everyone: to answer these points in turn.

I know four days is too early. It’s just that my last few batches have cleared super-quick. Maybe the colder weather?

The swing-tops are from Wilkos and have been used to keep beer under pressure a good six times. I find swing-tops way more convenient than cappers and easier on the delicate hands when bottling than screw-tops. I am trying to build up my stocks of darker swing-tops, especially ones that hold more, by buying plenty of tripels when on hols in France.

As for selling the stuff, it’s primarily as an advert for my wife’s Just Giving page (or an opportunity for people to give less but still feel they’ve contributed). I always give a few bottles away, this time i thought i’d ask for a small donation. That should be harmless enough, shouldn’t it? Or do people have real-life experience of this being a problem?
 
I always give a few bottles away, this time i thought i’d ask for a small donation. That should be harmless enough, shouldn’t it? Or do people have real-life experience of this being a problem?

I would like to think so! We live in a very messed up, backward society though.

4 days? Gotta give it longer than that!
 
As for selling the stuff, it’s primarily as an advert for my wife’s Just Giving page (or an opportunity for people to give less but still feel they’ve contributed). I always give a few bottles away, this time i thought i’d ask for a small donation. That should be harmless enough, shouldn’t it? Or do people have real-life experience of this being a problem?

I'm a million miles from being a lawyer but a simple search comes up with the unanimous view that it's illegal to sell and even to give away homebrew outside of a 'domestic' settting (i.e., sharing with friends). There's even a good few posts on this forum. At the end of the day it's up to you but this is the internet and somebody out there is always vindictive enough to cause problems for well-meaning people like yourself.
 
I always give a few bottles away, this time i thought i’d ask for a small donation.

Given the letter of the law, I suspect that will be illegal. If you're exchanging goods for money then you're selling them, to my mind. But the law is a complicated and not particularly nuanced beast- it may well be the case that by calling them a "gift" and calling the money a "donation" you can get away with it.

You also have to consider the probability of getting caught and the police actually bothering to do anything if you did, but I would double check, if I were you. Try asking here:

http://www.thelawforum.co.uk
 
Don't take this as formal advice on the matter, as I have no particular expertise in the area.

The duty payable on beer is governed by the Alcoholic Liquor Duties Act 1979. There are likely to be subsequent amendments but the bulk of the legislation appears to sit here.

Section 1(1) says that beer is subject to duty.

Beer is defined in s.1(2) as "includes ale, porter, stout and any other description of beer, and any liquor which is made or sold as a description of beer or as a substitute for beer and which of a strength exceeding 0.5 per cent." [I believe this has subsequently been amended to 1.2%]

For completeness, it "does not include—black beer the worts whereof before fermentation were of a specific gravity of 1200° or more" [I think this black beer reference then takes you to a different duty charge - perhaps the strong beer category??]

Section 41 provides us with the Homebrewer exemption and says "The duty on beer produced in the United Kingdom shall not be chargeable on beer produced by a person who produces beer only for his own domestic use."

So that's the law - duty on anything over 1.2% unless you produce it yourself for your own consumption. This suggests you can't even give it away!

But then we have to look at what HMRC might enforce, which is where their guidance comes in. HMRC's guidance is not legally binding on either party, so they could prosecute someone even where they adhere to the guidance, if the law says something else.

The key phrase from HMRC's guidance is "If you produce beer for commercial reasons and its strength exceeds 1.2% ABV, you must pay Beer Duty."

There is no specific definition given for "commercial reasons", and so we would have to take its ordinary meaning.

Gifting beer to someone, i.e. sharing with friends and family or other homebrewers for free, is not likely to amount to a "commercial" situation. I would suggest we're reasonably safe on that front and don't need to close down the forum competitions.

In terms of selling for charitable purposes, you could read "commercial" in various ways. Either, it's interpreted pretty widely as covering any situation where you're selling it to anyone; narrowed slightly in saying it applies to sales to the public; or very narrow in that commercial reason is with a view to making a profit.

It should be noted that I believe there are plenty of legal references out there to how charities can still have commercial reasons, e.g. charity shops are likely to be commercial ventures in many respects, notwithstanding the charitable intention.

Also worth noting is that HMRC talk about "commercial reason" and don't explicitly state "where beer is sold" or something similar, i.e. could this mean HMRC accept there might be situations where beer is sold but this is not a commercial situation? Dunno.

To conclude, the law seems relatively clear on what is and is not subject to duty. You may take comfort in the argument that HMRC will only seek to enforce duty where you are trying to make a profit from selling the beer, but that's a risk you take. Perhaps they have bigger fish to fry and wouldn't worry too much about someone selling a handful of beers to raise some money for charity.
 
@Bezza
Good post and final concluding paragraph. :thumb:
As an aside, there may be well be UK case law relevant to this sitiuation where HMRC have pursued a brewer through the courts to establish how the law should be interpreted, especially since the core legislation is nearly 40 years old.
If there isn't any, it suggests that HMRC do indeed have 'bigger fish to fry', so any small brewer who wishes to do what OP is proposing can proceed without much risk.
 
There's also the issue of liability if you accidentally poison a stranger, or if they think that you did.
 
Wow, that’s some incredibly detailed responses. Thank you, all. I guess i’ll Take a call on this when the beer clears, but you won’t be hearing about it here (or anywhere). The revenue’s reluctance to prosecute cases such as this reminds me of the 80s days of radio piracy and home taping. Everyone knew the letter of the law but the authorities rarely thought it worth clamping down upon unless occasionally for symbolic purposes.
 
Your beer is warm conditioning I take it? It's in doors in cold weather and you probably have the heating on? I would warm condition it and then leave it in a cold place for a couple of weeks and it will probably clear. With my first brew on the grain father I forget the Profloc tablet and no matter how cold the weather is it is not getting any clearer..so I am marketing it to myself as an East Coast IPA!
 
There's also the issue of liability if you accidentally poison a stranger, or if they think that you did.

And to really cheer you up I refer you to the famous

Donoghue v Stevenson Case (aka "The Snail in the Bottle Case")

It will make your hair stand on end and it's the reason why I rinse my bottles at least:
  • Three times in water before I put them on the Bottle Rack.
  • Once in water before using them
  • Once in Oxy-Clean before filling them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donoghue_v_Stevenson


Enjoy! :thumb:
 
And to really cheer you up I refer you to the famous

Donoghue v Stevenson Case (aka "The Snail in the Bottle Case")

It will make your hair stand on end and it's the reason why I rinse my bottles at least:



    • Three times in water before I put them on the Bottle Rack.
    • Once in water before using them
    • Once in Oxy-Clean before filling them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donoghue_v_Stevenson

Enjoy! :thumb:

I rinse them, dish washer them and then cap them with a plastic cap or cling film before going to the garage, then they get starsaned at bottling stage.
 
And to really cheer you up I refer you to the famous

Donoghue v Stevenson Case (aka "The Snail in the Bottle Case")

It will make your hair stand on end and it's the reason why I rinse my bottles at least:



    • Three times in water before I put them on the Bottle Rack.
    • Once in water before using them
    • Once in Oxy-Clean before filling them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donoghue_v_Stevenson

Enjoy! :thumb:

Extra protein. Could end up like an Oyster Stout.
 
...The only thing that I can remember being different is that there was a slight leak through the airlock when fermenting initially. This smelled vinegary, but certainly the beer I tasted when siphoning into the bottles gave every impression it would be fine. ...
I wouldn't worry about "vinegary" if the bulk seemed OK and was bottled. As I learnt recently in a rather unusual way.

Turning alcohol to vinegar needs oxygen. So even if the beer is infected with something like acetobacter, which seems unlikely if the bulk doesn't taste vinegary, bottling it cuts off any oxygen supply (not to say bugs don't find another way to cause nuisance). Another useful fact: If there is an oxygen supply you don't need bacterial infection, the yeast will start metabolising alcohol to vinegar when it runs out of sugars to go at. And the unusual way I learnt this? I had a length of silicon tubing full of fermenting beer attached to the fermenter. Silicon tubing is very permeable to oxygen (but not bugs).

Oh, and while I do use an airlock in the later stages, initially the fermenting beer vents directly to atmosphere (via 1/2" BSP plumbing, no phaffing about with a "blow-off" tube). My ferments are pretty active and nothing will fight against the outward flow of CO2. Ale is traditionally fermented in open vessels (and wine, and ...).
 
And to really cheer you up I refer you to the famous

Donoghue v Stevenson Case (aka "The Snail in the Bottle Case")

It will make your hair stand on end and it's the reason why I rinse my bottles at least:



    • Three times in water before I put them on the Bottle Rack.
    • Once in water before using them
    • Once in Oxy-Clean before filling them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donoghue_v_Stevenson

Enjoy! :thumb:

Ha! Reminds me of when I finished brewing a while ago and found a largish brown snail while cleaning my kettle. I have no idea where it came from, my gear is all stored in a spare bedroom; So I can only assume it was hidden in with the hops.
I drank the beer and survived. I reckoned as it had been boiled for an hour, it would only have added a little harmless flavour.
 
Oh, and while I do use an airlock in the later stages, initially the fermenting beer vents directly to atmosphere (via 1/2" BSP plumbing, no phaffing about with a "blow-off" tube). My ferments are pretty active and nothing will fight against the outward flow of CO2. Ale is traditionally fermented in open vessels (and wine, and ...).
If fermenting without an airlock I'd be more concerned about crawling and flying things falling into the fermenter. Attracted by the sweet smell of fermentation you can easily imagine them crawling into your outlet pipe, dropping dead through suffocation and ending up in the beer!
 

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