Parti-Gyle Brewing

[Slid]

I have been reading up on this for some while now. It is essentially the pre-industrial age way of brewing and involves obtaining more than one brew from a single batch of grain. This was done out of the necessity to get the most out of expensive grain and also in order to avoid drinking unboiled water.

The conclusion I reached from this research is that I really want to try it out, if only to be able to say that I did it. A bit like running a marathon, I suppose.

I also concluded that the Grainfather should be a good aid in doing a Parti-Gyle, so here is the outline plan.

Simple grain bill - 6.5kg Maris Otter and 650g of Crystal.

Mash and mash out as usual, drop 12.5L into a pot for a Barley Wine sort of a thing done on the stove. English hops, some cane sugar to keep it light.

Then re-float the mash with 12.5L of water @ 75C and recirculate at 75C for a bit and then sparge as "usual". (This bit is a bit sketchy).

The second full length brew gets an addition of my last Coopers Lager kit at the end of the boil and it will thus be a Partial Mash sort of an effort, done as a single hop using Cascade (100g in total).

Having turned it over and over in the ageing mind whilst jogging around in the early mornings, I think it should turn out OK. Am aiming for 11L for the BW and 23-25L for the Cascade IPA PM.

Doing 3 modelling scenarios using BrewMate suggest it should turn out OK. The base-line assumption I am using is from Randy Mosher's "Radical Brewing" - half the stuff ends up in the half-sized first brew and the other half in the "small" beer, which I am stuffing with a kit.

Any thoughts, before kick off?

 

[Ajhutch]

I know what you mean, it feels like a right of passage to attempt it! Your plan makes sense, you'd basically be doing a traditional mash and lauter followed by a sparge but not combining those runnings as you normally would.

I wonder if another option is to not mash out before you take the first runnings, and then top up with mash temperature water to see if you can extract a bit more sugar for the second runnings. I don't know how long conversion normally takes, so it may be that after an hour conversion is normally complete, in which case this wouldn't work.

 

[Slid]

I know what you mean, it feels like a right of passage to attempt it! Your plan makes sense, you'd basically be doing a traditional mash and lauter followed by a sparge but not combining those runnings as you normally would.

I wonder if another option is to not mash out before you take the first runnings, and then top up with mash temperature water to see if you can extract a bit more sugar for the second runnings. I don't know how long conversion normally takes, so it may be that after an hour conversion is normally complete, in which case this wouldn't work.

Good shout!

This is indeed one many of my meanderings. I really liked the thought at first and was swayed only by the said Mosher's writings on the subject. I think I will go on instinct when the time comes.

Many thanks for the input, though, exactly what I wanted to hear :thumb:

 

[cheapbrew]

Go for it

I've done several parti-gyle stylee brews just using extra water on a standard brew to steep the mash again for 30 mins, then added some spraymalt to raise the SG for a weaker beer, interestingly some of these second brews have come out nicer than the main brew..

 

[Manxnorton]

Sandy
I've been interested for ages m8, but I had to research lol
Thx for where to go and learn.
This is going to a epic journey and looking fwd for the result.
I might be out of my league with all this full on action...but in time I'll get there.

 

[Gerryjo]

Tried this before Christmas and got an absolute cracker brew from the second runnings.I didn't Mash out though on the first or the second come to think and I've just tonight finished the last bottle of the first which was a ruination clone.
http://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=66228
I would strongly advise to try it but don't overdo it on adjuncts but well worth it......

Sent from my Hudl 2 using Tapatalk

 

[Slid]

OK, so today I went with Ajhutch's plan of collecting the first runnings at 65C and re-doing the mash. A lot went wrong today, but it seems to have come out OK.

The mash was a bit compact and the GF mash tun was very full, so I was uneasy from the start. There was so much of it that the wort was running through the holes for the carrying handles during the initial 1hr mash and on the secondary 30mins mash..

Where I feel I made the biggest mistake of the day was at re-float time. This approach demands a re-doughing at this stage, else the mash becomes very compact and little wort re-circulates at all.

Ended up lifting and dropping the grain basket a bit and then just giving it a big stir up at mash-out with the GF Paddle.

The BW on the stove went without incident and ended with 10L @ 1085.

During the large boil, I decided to add the LME (Coopers kit) at 10 mins to go. Sadly, it scorched a bit and the GF cut-out kicked in. This meant faffing around a bit with the late Cascade additions and spending ages trying to tease the blackened sugars off the boil plate at clearing up.

7 hour brew day. 8am to 3pm.

Ran the "numbers" back through Brew Mate and I have 10L of prospective Barley Wine at 1085 and 25.7L of Cascade IPA @ 1056 for a brewhouse efficiency of ~ 66% - same as usual, despite a very sticky mash an an agricultural sparge.

For learning points:

Don't overfill the GF mash basket. (9kg? - not for me!).
Get the mash mobile early and keep it mobile in the GF.
Re-do the dough-in after taking the first runnings.
Don't add a kit / LME / DME / sugar to to a GF brew before flame out if doing a partial mash.
Stay calm, whatever goes wrong. It is going to be beer in the end, even if not the one you thought you wanted.

 

[Honk]

That's a new concept to me and given me an idea how to use the last kit I have remaining.

Will have to have a think about this when I have not spent the afternoon drinking homebrew.

 

[Zephyr259]

https://www.grainfather.com/blog/week-102-partigyle-brewing/

This might be of interest, not much new info if you've already researched partigyle brewing but he should be releasing his brew day video soon. I'd been wondering if partigyle would work with the GF since a handy split is 1/3 to 2/3 volumes which gives a 2:1 gravity ratio. But I worried that the GF water calcs would mess that up. Only done 2 brews with my GF but this is in the pipeline.

 

[Slid]

https://www.grainfather.com/blog/week-102-partigyle-brewing/

This might be of interest, not much new info if you've already researched partigyle brewing but he should be releasing his brew day video soon. I'd been wondering if partigyle would work with the GF since a handy split is 1/3 to 2/3 volumes which gives a 2:1 gravity ratio. But I worried that the GF water calcs would mess that up. Only done 2 brews with my GF but this is in the pipeline.

With hindsight, I feel that the main thing to remember with the GF is to stir up the mash at the start and then especially when adding the extra water before the sparge. 7.15kg is at least a 1kg more than I had used before and I found it hard to handle the big grain bill.

 

[Simonh82]

Fuller's still use this method to make their beers today. It was used by quite a lot of breweries up to the middle decades of the 20th century.

I'm guessing industrialised process efficiency modeling did for it as the large breweries mechanised and automated.

It's never appealed to me, partly because I don't fancy handling 8KG of wet grain. The odd 6KG grain bill has been big enough for me and my 30L BIAB set up.

 

[Slid]

Fuller's still use this method to make their beers today. It was used by quite a lot of breweries up to the middle decades of the 20th century.

I'm guessing industrialised process efficiency modeling did for it as the large breweries mechanised and automated.

It's never appealed to me, partly because I don't fancy handling 8KG of wet grain. The odd 6KG grain bill has been big enough for me and my 30L BIAB set up.

I would add my own experience of today to support this pragmatic view.

Very sensible. It was a PITA doing this and I would need a very special reason for doing a small mega brew to try it again.

6kg is plenty in a GF, for mine.

 

[Ajhutch]

Sounds like an experience, which is what you said it probably would be in the original post! Will be really interesting to see how it comes out. Do you have a feel for how much of your second beer's gravity comes from the kit and what comes from the second running of your mash?

 

[cheapbrew]

The next time you've finished the mash on your brew, just add same amount of water as your sparge to the spent mash and give it a good stir, I do it every few minutes over 30 min period, then I squeeze the feck out of it, depending on the SG of your main brew you wont get much sugars out, but it will have the flavour! boil with your hops for 30 mins, you might get 1010 -1020 maybe so you will need to add some malt extract or spraymalt, or similar, even sugar to up the SG to taste.

But for the sake of a bit of boiling water and some extra fermentables and yeast n hops its worth a try for a few extra bottles of a different beer eh?
I do it almost religiously now as long as I have the time and space, and as I mentioned above, the second brew has come out better than the first more than once!

 

[Manxnorton]

There's a mixed view on this..lol
Not only from the experience HB'ers, but the likes of me.
One thing it got me (and others) reading up on it if you didn't know what to do, and the history of it!
Think it's said 'once in a lifetime for say you've done it....
For me at the mo! Too much that can go wrong...too little hands to do it properly!! Lol
In all attention to get it right! Feel ill fluff it up somewhere along the line...
M8...your post and pm's was bloody interesting, but is it worth it lol?
I struggle getting my shoes one...(L & R on them!) but I'll keep an open mind!!! Never say never...
Can't wait for the results...love experimenting keeps me active...lol

 

[Slid]

Sounds like an experience, which is what you said it probably would be in the original post! Will be really interesting to see how it comes out. Do you have a feel for how much of your second beer's gravity comes from the kit and what comes from the second running of your mash?

Yes indeed, thanks to Brew Mate. Of the 1.054 OG I believe 20 gravity points is the kit and 34 is the second runnings. I "only" took about 12L for the Barley Wine and it simmered down to 10L in the FV. So, without the kit it may have made for a 3.5% ABV sort of a brew.

 

[jceg316]

I've tried partigyle brewing before. It was a great experience and I really like the idea of it. It takes some effort though. I've only tried it once and made many mistakes: http://www.honestbeerguide.com/homebrew-log/partigyle-brewing/ mostly getting my water volumes wrong.

 

[chub1]

The next time you've finished the mash on your brew, just add same amount of water as your sparge to the spent mash and give it a good stir, I do it every few minutes over 30 min period, then I squeeze the feck out of it, depending on the SG of your main brew you wont get much sugars out, but it will have the flavour! boil with your hops for 30 mins, you might get 1010 -1020 maybe so you will need to add some malt extract or spraymalt, or similar, even sugar to up the SG to taste.

But for the sake of a bit of boiling water and some extra fermentables and yeast n hops its worth a try for a few extra bottles of a different beer eh?
I do it almost religiously now as long as I have the time and space, and as I mentioned above, the second brew has come out better than the first more than once!

Chug, what temp do you keep the second lot at please?

 

[Slid]

The next time you've finished the mash on your brew, just add same amount of water as your sparge to the spent mash and give it a good stir, I do it every few minutes over 30 min period, then I squeeze the feck out of it, depending on the SG of your main brew you wont get much sugars out, but it will have the flavour! boil with your hops for 30 mins, you might get 1010 -1020 maybe so you will need to add some malt extract or spraymalt, or similar, even sugar to up the SG to taste.

But for the sake of a bit of boiling water and some extra fermentables and yeast n hops its worth a try for a few extra bottles of a different beer eh?
I do it almost religiously now as long as I have the time and space, and as I mentioned above, the second brew has come out better than the first more than once!

Giving it a good stir is what I failed to do and hence got 2x rubbish mashes of 60 and 30 mins respectively. By some miracle, stirring after the mash-out (post mash #2) was enough to get the efficiency back up to ~ 66%

 

[Slid]

I've tried partigyle brewing before. It was a great experience and I really like the idea of it. It takes some effort though. I've only tried it once and made many mistakes: http://www.honestbeerguide.com/homebrew-log/partigyle-brewing/ mostly getting my water volumes wrong.

Very good looking blog, there!

After the first runnings, I assume you returned the total volume back up to 33L, as opposed to adding a full 33 further litres? In that, 20L in the fermenters from 66L of water in total seems profligate, even by the leakage performance of a water company.