Question Time!

[DaddyCool]

Howdy Brewers!

It's my first time ever at brewing anything apart from mold in an old coffee cup...

I'm having a go at cider from actual apples that I pressed a while ago (2 types, one cooking apples, the other sweet dessert apples).

I managed to squeeze 2 gallons of the cooking apples and 1.5 gallons of the sweet ones.

Noob mitakes I made along the way with 1st batch (I think I did OK with the second, although only time will tell):
1- I kicked off my first fermentation directly into DJs (i.e. not in FV) and filled the DJs a bit too much which resulted in stuff gushing through the air lock and all over in my cupboard floor (at least I knoew the frementation was happeneing!!)

2- I never sanitized the firt DJs, only rinsed them with cold water
3- Didn't use any campden tablets or yeast nutrients before or during primary
4- After adding the yeast (standard baker's yeast found in my kitchen cupboard), I realised it had expired in 2014! meh...*shrug* (I'm French btw so I know how to shrug alright...
5- I only read about hydrometer readings after i'd started the whole thing, so I don't have a base reading to refer to.
6- I ordered a hydrometer since, but it came from Poland so I have o idea what's written on it. I guess Google translate will be my friend.

Despite all that, the things have been bubbling away for 4 weeks now in a dark warm place and it's now finally cleared up. Everywhere I read primary takes people 2 to 3 weeks but mine is still going after 4 or more...albeit only one bubble every min and half now!

I took a sample into a trial jar and took a reading. No idea what I'm looking at (in Polish) or if it's relevant anyway since I haven't got a base reading. All I know is that it's bang on between a red and green marks. I think it says 0% but who knows...I drank the sample and am still alive to tell the tale. It tasted like a semi bubbly dry and slightly acidic white wine, and I can definitely taste some alchohol (a bit like a very dry Old Rosie).

Second batch primary (sweet apples) was done in the same manner but in sanitised DJs. Difference is the fermentation was started a couple of weeks later. That one too has now slowed right down to the occasional bubble ever couple of minutes. I have not tasted yet as one DJ is only half full so I didn't want the CO2 layer protecting my cider to escape (I have been listening you see?!)...

1st question: does is matter if I don't take a base reading before primary?
2nd question: does the fermentation have to stop completely? or is one bubble every 2min considered as 'stopped'
3rd question: I bought blend of acids as I've read that it could help with very sharp acidic taste. Will that help or should I look at another solution to make the 1st batch a bit less dry/bit sweeter?
4th question: I made sure I stared at my DJs every single day for at least half an hour and read them a story every night. Will that help making my cider sweeter?

I got all my glass bottles ready and sanitized and a clean vassal for racking but I don't know if I'm being impatient or not...Every time I think "oh THAT'S IT! it has stopped bubbling...and then blurp....one more bubble"

I intend to bottle up (500ml bottles) and add half a teaspoon of sugar in each for carbonation, and I have a test cola bottle to monitor the 'hardness' before I pasteurise in 80C water for 10min. Have I been following right? I will wear my bomb disposal suit when doing it of course.

If I keep the cider in a cool place for a couple of months after that, will it sweeten with time?

I think that's enough jibberish for now. More updates on second batch later...curious to see what difference having two types of apples makes in the end.

Thanks if you find the time answer any of the questions above!

In the meantime have a great Halloween.

 

[GerritT]

1st question: does is matter if I don't take a base reading before primary?
2nd question: does the fermentation have to stop completely? or is one bubble every 2min considered as 'stopped'
3rd question: I bought blend of acids as I've read that it could help with very sharp acidic taste. Will that help or should I look at another solution to make the 1st batch a bit less dry/bit sweeter?
4th question: I made sure I stared at my DJs every single day for at least half an hour and read them a story every night. Will that help making my cider sweeter?

I got all my glass bottles ready and sanitized and a clean vassal for racking but I don't know if I'm being impatient or not...Every time I think "oh THAT'S IT! it has stopped bubbling...and then blurp....one more bubble"

I intend to bottle up (500ml bottles) and add half a teaspoon of sugar in each for carbonation, and I have a test cola bottle to monitor the 'hardness' before I pasteurise in 80C water for 10min. Have I been following right? I will wear my bomb disposal suit when doing it of course.

If I keep the cider in a cool place for a couple of months after that, will it sweeten with time?

I think that's enough jibberish for now. More updates on second batch later...curious to see what difference having two types of apples makes in the end.

Thanks if you find the time answer any of the questions above!

In the meantime have a great Halloween.

You're French, as a Dutchie I consider you semi Belgian :-) Welcome!

1st answer: the second reading might give you an idea whether it's dry or not. The first reading might give you an indication what the alcohol level is, in combi with the second.
2nd: it should stop, but (and please, correct me here if I'm wrong) if you you bottle in plastic pressure bottles it might work. They can stand a LOT of pressure. But be prepared for gushes.
3rd: dunno
4th: ciders get better on Fantasy, ales prefer SF and Horror, lagers like cheap novels. All of them prefer metal.

Go here for carbonation: https://www.brewersfriend.com/beer-priming-calculator/

Cider might not sweeten with time but ugly alcohols might mellow down.
They never get old enough here. I need the space. And the bottles. And the alcohol. Did I tell you I work in education?

 

[DaddyCool]

You're French, as a Dutchie I consider you semi Belgian :-) Welcome!

Thanks! With the amount of Belgian beer I drink every year I might as well be...than you for taking the time to read anyway!

1st answer: the second reading might give you an idea whether it's dry or not. The first reading might give you an indication what the alcohol level is, in combi with the second.

So, is there a way of finding out the alcohol content without the 1st reading?

2nd: it should stop, but (and please, correct me here if I'm wrong) if you you bottle in plastic pressure bottles it might work. They can stand a LOT of pressure. But be prepared for gushes.

I only plan on bottling only one plastic bottle as the 'indicator of carbonation'. I do have some standards - not a big fan of drinking my liquid gold in crappy plastic bottles! :ugeek: :-?

3rd: dunno

Fair enough.

4th: ciders get better on Fantasy, ales prefer SF and Horror, lagers like cheap novels. All of them prefer metal.

I know right... I keep telling the wife to quit listening to Celine Dion anywhere near the kitchen as the cider might hear it!

Go here for carbonation: https://www.brewersfriend.com/beer-priming-calculator/

I did find that site the other day and intend to use it indeed, although knowing me I will end up screwing my quantities up one way or another.

Cider might not sweeten with time but ugly alcohols might mellow down.
They never get old enough here. I need the space. And the bottles. And the alcohol. Did I tell you I work in education?

My wife is a teacher..I know what you lot are like! I really thought cider did sweeten with age though. I'm sure I've read that a few times on here.

 

[Sadfield]

Damn French! I've not yet attempted Cider, but having drunk a fair bit in Brittany and Normandy, making a cider in that style has been on my (brew)bucket list for a while.

Any keeving experts on here?

Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk

 

[DaddyCool]

French cider is AMAZING!

Good luck to you producing some though...below article is a bit of a mouthful for novices like me but might mean something to you.
"an outline of a traditional French and English technique which many regard as the pinnacle of the cidermaker's art"

 

[Soton]

You can still use a hydrometer Reading to tell if the fermentation has stopped, take a reading and make a note of what it is, then a few days later take another reading, if the reading is exactly the same it’s stopped fermenting, if the reading is moving down wait a few more days and check again
It better to wait until it’s stopped fermenting so as to control your carbonation levels and avoid exploding bottles

 

[tonyhibbett]

The long fermentation is probably due to malolactic fermentation, which is common with un-sulphited raw apple juice. This converts the malic acid into lactic acid, which is half as strong.

 

[DaddyCool]

The long fermentation is probably due to malolactic fermentation, which is common with un-sulphited raw apple juice. This converts the malic acid into lactic acid, which is half as strong.

Thanks Tony, in english, is that good or bad? :whistle:
Are you saying I should've put campden tablets in the must before fermentation (is that potassium metabisulphite?)
Does it mean the yeasties have to work harder?

 

[freester]

Ha. I enjoyed reading this. I'm no expert, a few noob mistakes but in my opinion the acid environment will let you get away with things a beer brew would not forgive you :whistle:

1st question: does is matter if I don't take a base reading before primary?

Not really but you won't know how strong it is.

2nd question: does the fermentation have to stop completely?

Yes, really. Unless you want bottle bombs or want to pasteurise.

or is one bubble every 2min considered as 'stopped'

If it's still bubbling it ain't finished. As above check with a hydrometer once it's stopped bubbling. Even if it's in Polish if it stays on the same line it's finished.

3rd question: I bought blend of acids as I've read that it could help with very sharp acidic taste. Will that help or should I look at another solution to make the 1st batch a bit less dry/bit sweeter?

The acidity will mellow with time. Patience. The fabled malo-lactic ferment will happen in the spring as it warms back up again.

4th question: I made sure I stared at my DJs every single day for at least half an hour and read them a story every night. Will that help making my cider sweeter?

Unfortunately no. I do also spend time with my FVs watching them bubble and talk to them. It's extremely relaxing and therapeutic.

I intend to bottle up (500ml bottles) and add half a teaspoon of sugar in each for carbonation, and I have a test cola bottle to monitor the 'hardness' before I pasteurise in 80C water for 10min. Have I been following right? I will wear my bomb disposal suit when doing it of course.

If it's fermented to dry 1/2 tsp per 500ml is fine and you won't need to pasteurise.

If I keep the cider in a cool place for a couple of months after that, will it sweeten with time?

No. It will mellow out and get better. The acidity will hopefully mellow. If you really want sweet now add artificial sweetener or more sugar then pasteurise when you reach the correct carbonation.

 

[DaddyCool]

Thanks for the response Freester. I'm a bit confused though (doesn't take much tbf). The two lines below seem to contradict themselves as one says add sugar but no need to pasteurise and the other add sugar and pasteurise...

If it's fermented to dry 1/2 tsp per 500ml is fine and you won't need to pasteurise.

If you really want sweet now add artificial sweetener or more sugar then pasteurise when you reach the correct carbonation.

My understanding is that as soon as you add priming sugar again the yeasties will get their party hats on and have another go at fermenting it. If that happens in a closed glass bottle then if left too long BOOM. I thought you had to pasteurise regardless (if sugar is added) to avoid that.

Or did you mean 'add even more [than 1/2 tsp]' in that second one?

 

[freester]

Thanks for the response Freester. I'm a bit confused though (doesn't take much tbf). The two lines below seem to contradict themselves as one says add sugar but no need to pasteurise and the other add sugar and pasteurise...





My understanding is that as soon as you add priming sugar again the yeasties will get their party hats on and have another go at fermenting it.

Correct

If that happens in a closed glass bottle then if left too long BOOM.

Well now that depends on how much sugar you've added or if the cider (or beer or wine) or hasn't completed fermentation.

Basically how much CO2 generated (and whether the bottle explodes) depends on how much sugar is left once the bottle is sealed.

Most general guidelines state 2 tsp of priming sugar per litre added to a fermented to dry (i.e. no sugar left) cider will give a nice fizzy product. Obviously this assumes the only extra fermentation is from the added priming sugar. This is why you have to be sure fermentation has finished.

I thought you had to pasteurise regardless (if sugar is added) to avoid that.

So bearing in mind above - no. Only pasteurise if you want to stop fermentation before all the sugar has been fermented. Hope this all makes sense.