Questions brewing sour beer..

[shawn]

Hi guys,

I no expert in homebrew, especially in sour beer brewing. I Google a lot, but i still hav a lot of doubts, wish some of you may help me in this matter.

1. What base malt should we use? What mashing temperature is suggested? Mash for 1 hour too? What really mean for acid rest?

2. Boiling time still have to be 60 min? Minimum hop addition?

3. We can let the boiled wort expose to open space, maybe 1 or 2 days, let the wild yeast to go in right?

4. wild yeast also called Brett right? Can be purchased in homebrew shop also? How about Lectobaccilus, Pediococcus?

5. Still need to use cultured yeast like Safele US05 to add in? When to add in?

6. Why some said need over months or year to ferment the sour beer? Some can be done just month?

7. How to make sure the sour beer we brewed is safe to drink, so there is no bad bacteria inside? bad sour beer is not fatal right?

I'm sorry guys, I know a lot questions here, seem like I can't really have good answer, that's why I come to you guys.

Thank you so much for any comments. Happy 2019, have a great year ahead.. Cheer..

 

[Zephyr259]

First of all, happy new year. I'm just starting with my sour beers but have done a lot of research, this blog was great help, an people speak highly of the milk the funk wiki, I'm also listening through the back catalogue of the Sour Hour on the brewing network. Here's some opinions on your questions.

1. What base malt should we use? What mashing temperature is suggested? Mash for 1 hour too? What really mean for acid rest?

This depends on style, for Lambic you'd want pilsner and wheat, for flanders red vienna might be helpful. But really any base malt will work as long as you choice it based on the style of sour you want. Mashing higher creates more compex sugars which will feed brettanomyces and pediococcus over the long term, but often a lower mash temp is used fine, 1 hr is still good, just converting starch to sugar as normal. Traditional turbid mash deliberately keeps starch around to feed the brett. An acid rest is a rest in the low 40s C and promotes a lower mash pH I believe, it's more typical for wheat beers as it's meant to generate ferulic acid which they turn into clove phenols.

2. Boiling time still have to be 60 min? Minimum hop addition?

Berliner Weisse are typically short or no boil I think. Hops can vary from almost nothing to 20 IBUs depending on style, most lactobaccilus are inhibited by hops even at like 5 IBU, but in longer aged beers pedio does a lot of the souring so IBUs can be higher. My Oude Bruin has about 22 IBUs, but my golden sour got 5 g of old Saaz for 1.5 IBU.

3. We can let the boiled wort expose to open space, maybe 1 or 2 days, let the wild yeast to go in right?

Yes you can, people do, it's very dependant on your location and luck and I have no experience with it.

4. wild yeast also called Brett right? Can be purchased in homebrew shop also? How about Lectobaccilus, Pediococcus?

Brettanomyces is a wild yeast which has a few cultured strains. Lacto and Pedio are lactic acid bacteria and can also be bought as a single culture or mixed with brett and sachh.

5. Still need to use cultured yeast like Safele US05 to add in? When to add in?

Maybe, a sour blend will have sachh in it but since starters can be dodgy with sour blends pitching some regular yeast with the blend is an idea (Mike Tonsmiere's preferred method), but you can ferment clean then sour, I did this with an old ale and a bock, both fermented clean then half the batch bottled and the other half got Brett C or a sour blend added and stored in a carboy. My Golden Sour got everything in primary (Roeselare Blend) plus another sacch strain (well technically i used a Kveik strain).

Then there's 100% brett fermentations, won't be sour or super dry but has unique character which is unlike brett's usual one, much more fruit and less funk.

6. Why some said need over months or year to ferment the sour beer? Some can be done just month?

Brett and pedio are slow, if you're only souring with lacto then it'll be quicker. Also if you kettle sour with lacto then that's a quick method too, and doesn't contaminate your cold-side equipment.

7. How to make sure the sour beer we brewed is safe to drink, so there is no bad bacteria inside? bad sour beer is not fatal right?

You'd only get "bad" bacteria if you spontaneously ferment by leaving it open to the air. In a lambic fermentation, the first bug active are entereobacter but these are quickly inhibited by the falling pH and rising alcohol. Beer is low pH (especially sours) and decently alcoholic which make it safe to drink, along with boiling and hops it's why it was often safer than water historically. If you only use cultured bugs and yeast then you have the same risk of "something nasty" as any other beer, maybe less.

Hope those help, others have more experience in the area than me at the moment but there's a few sour brewers here who I guess will be along after the hangovers wear off. :-)

 

[strange-steve]

I can't really add anything to zephyr's answer above, but I will ask what sort of sour beer would you like to brew? Lambic, weisse, Flanders red, oud bruin? Knowing this will help us give you more specific answers.

 

[shawn]

First of all, happy new year. I'm just starting with my sour beers but have done a lot of research, this blog was great help, an people speak highly of the milk the funk wiki, I'm also listening through the back catalogue of the Sour Hour on the brewing network. Here's some opinions on your questions.

1. What base malt should we use? What mashing temperature is suggested? Mash for 1 hour too? What really mean for acid rest?

This depends on style, for Lambic you'd want pilsner and wheat, for flanders red vienna might be helpful. But really any base malt will work as long as you choice it based on the style of sour you want. Mashing higher creates more compex sugars which will feed brettanomyces and pediococcus over the long term, but often a lower mash temp is used fine, 1 hr is still good, just converting starch to sugar as normal. Traditional turbid mash deliberately keeps starch around to feed the brett. An acid rest is a rest in the low 40s C and promotes a lower mash pH I believe, it's more typical for wheat beers as it's meant to generate ferulic acid which they turn into clove phenols.

2. Boiling time still have to be 60 min? Minimum hop addition?

Berliner Weisse are typically short or no boil I think. Hops can vary from almost nothing to 20 IBUs depending on style, most lactobaccilus are inhibited by hops even at like 5 IBU, but in longer aged beers pedio does a lot of the souring so IBUs can be higher. My Oude Bruin has about 22 IBUs, but my golden sour got 5 g of old Saaz for 1.5 IBU.

3. We can let the boiled wort expose to open space, maybe 1 or 2 days, let the wild yeast to go in right?

Yes you can, people do, it's very dependant on your location and luck and I have no experience with it.

4. wild yeast also called Brett right? Can be purchased in homebrew shop also? How about Lectobaccilus, Pediococcus?

Brettanomyces is a wild yeast which has a few cultured strains. Lacto and Pedio are lactic acid bacteria and can also be bought as a single culture or mixed with brett and sachh.

5. Still need to use cultured yeast like Safele US05 to add in? When to add in?

Maybe, a sour blend will have sachh in it but since starters can be dodgy with sour blends pitching some regular yeast with the blend is an idea (Mike Tonsmiere's preferred method), but you can ferment clean then sour, I did this with an old ale and a bock, both fermented clean then half the batch bottled and the other half got Brett C or a sour blend added and stored in a carboy. My Golden Sour got everything in primary (Roeselare Blend) plus another sacch strain (well technically i used a Kveik strain).

Then there's 100% brett fermentations, won't be sour or super dry but has unique character which is unlike brett's usual one, much more fruit and less funk.

6. Why some said need over months or year to ferment the sour beer? Some can be done just month?

Brett and pedio are slow, if you're only souring with lacto then it'll be quicker. Also if you kettle sour with lacto then that's a quick method too, and doesn't contaminate your cold-side equipment.

7. How to make sure the sour beer we brewed is safe to drink, so there is no bad bacteria inside? bad sour beer is not fatal right?

You'd only get "bad" bacteria if you spontaneously ferment by leaving it open to the air. In a lambic fermentation, the first bug active are entereobacter but these are quickly inhibited by the falling pH and rising alcohol. Beer is low pH (especially sours) and decently alcoholic which make it safe to drink, along with boiling and hops it's why it was often safer than water historically. If you only use cultured bugs and yeast then you have the same risk of "something nasty" as any other beer, maybe less.

Hope those help, others have more experience in the area than me at the moment but there's a few sour brewers here who I guess will be along after the hangovers wear off. :-)

Thank you so much for all the informations.. These are very useful to me.. Thanks again

 

[shawn]

I can't really add anything to zephyr's answer above, but I will ask what sort of sour beer would you like to brew? Lambic, weisse, Flanders red, oud bruin? Knowing this will help us give you more specific answers.

Haha.. I guess lambic..

 

[Leon103]

Following as a lambic is on my 2019 brew list

 

[Zephyr259]

Haha.. I guess lambic..

The next question is how traditional do you want to be? Tradition would lead to 60% pilsner, 40% wheat, a labour intensive turbid mash followed by a long (4 hr maybe) boil with a lot of aged hops. I'd skip the spontaneous inoculation and pitch a commercial mixed culture, then leave it for a year in primary so the brett and bugs feed on the dying sacch.

Or for something much simpler, this recipe (with a few tweaks) is what I have ageing currently. Think Greg Hughes' Cherry Lambic is 60% pilsner, 40% malted wheat, mashed conventionally and a tiny amount of hops added for a 60 min boil. Then pitched with a mixed culture and cherries later.

If you're really interested in the topic the Wild Brews by Jeff Sparrow is a great read. American Sour Beers by Mike Tonsmeire is also very good, but a more modern focus where Wild Brews is all about the historical Belgian styles.

 

[IainM]

I'm by no means an expert, but I'm on my third sour beer, of which the first was a lambic split four ways, one to drink young, one to age for blending, one on cherries and one on mango. The recipe was a classic one, 70% pilsner and 30% wheat, 60 minute mash at 68C, 60 minute boil with no hops, and using the Imperial Sour Batch Kidz blend, which has two normal yeast strains, two brett strains and lactobacillus. I left it for 4 months in a plastic bucket before syphoning off into the four respective batches, which might have let in a bit too much oxygen as the young one is good but slightly acetic, and the two fruit ones are very sharp, a bit too much. I'd recommend aging in glass, which is what I do now.

 

[Zephyr259]

I gave my sour a week in the fermenter by which time the airlock had stopped, then it's racked to a 23L glass carboy for ageing.

Forgot to mention that Steve's the man to ask about lambic as he's brewed a few batches for a geueze project, which he's been keeping us informed about.

 

[Zephyr259]

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