Rape?

Discussion in 'The Snug' started by Dutto, Sep 19, 2019.

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Did the man in the article deserve to be convicted of Rape?

Poll closed Oct 3, 2019.
  1. Yes

    10 vote(s)
    55.6%
  2. No

    6 vote(s)
    33.3%
  3. Possibly

    2 vote(s)
    11.1%
  1. Sep 19, 2019 #1

    Dutto

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    I though that this item from today's BBC News would be a suitable discussion for the Snug:

    "A man found guilty of rape after lying about having a vasectomy
    is appealing against the convictions.

    Jason Lawrence's convictions were thought to be the first of their kind
    and could have wider implications for others who deceive sexual partners.

    A woman had consented to having sex with Lawrence, but a jury found the
    consent she gave was negated because he deceived her with his vasectomy lie.

    Now his legal team is challenging that position."
    A long time ago I was taught that "Rape" could be committed by:
    1. Force. (i.e. someone forces a person to have sex with them by physical violence against the person.)
    2. Fear. (i.e. threats to the person OR to a third party [e.g. a child] intimidates a person into have sex.)
    3. Fraud. (i.e. a person persuades the victim that having sex with them will somehow improve their life.)
    4. False Pretence. (i.e. a person pretends to be someone or something that they are not.)
    As an explanation of 3 and 4 above the following have happened:
    • A Voice Coach persuaded a lady that her singing voice would be much improved by having sex with him. He was convicted of "Rape by Fraud".
    • A woman felt a man creep into her bed and thinking that it was her husband coming home from work she allowed sex to take place. It was not her husband and the perpetrator was convicted of "Rape by False Pretence".
    Personally, I think the man in the news was properly convicted so, any other opinions out there?
     
  2. Sep 19, 2019 #2

    Grizzly Notations

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    If the only reason she had consented sex with him was because he had received a vasectomy, then yes it is rape under false pretenses.
     
  3. Sep 19, 2019 #3

    BeerCat

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    Meanwhile in California the penalty for knowingly infecting someone with HIV has been lowered.
     
  4. Sep 19, 2019 #4

    simon12

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    In this case my opinion is it should be a crime but not rape as the sex was consensual so the crime should be some thing like causing pregnancy by deception. Also the women should accept (I'm don't know if she does or not and i'm not saying criminally) responsibility for trusting a stranger she found on a dating app. If lying to get sex is a crime where could it lead ie he said he could go all night but was done in 40 seconds iv'e been raped.
     
  5. Sep 19, 2019 #5

    MickDundee

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    I’m assuming you’ve missed the word “unprotected” here. I think the issue is he lied to avoid having a bath with his socks on.

    If it works this way then any woman who lies about being on the pill or having their tubes tied should also suffer the same fate!
     
  6. Sep 19, 2019 #6

    Grizzly Notations

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    I don't see the word unprotected in the initial post. So based on what has been provided to me, I would still say yes. Unprotected or not, that person has still been deceived.

    But I agree that people who lie about contraception should be punished.
     
  7. Sep 19, 2019 #7

    phildo79

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    @Dutto you left a bit out...

    'The vasectomy lie convictions were overshadowed by the fact Lawrance is a serial rapist who has attacked numerous women.'

    I reckon he got what he deserved.
     
  8. Sep 19, 2019 #8

    davidfromUS

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    The following is just my opinion.

    With just the info provided, I would call it fraud and not rape.

    Rape is a non-consensual sex act of force and violence but it's not cut and dry either; the man sneaking into a woman's bed is rape and still there is a violent element to it emotionally and that would be rape.

    The best you can hope for and should expect in a casual sex encounter is an adherence to the agreement to the sex act and nothing else--people lie about STDs, being married, being Hollywood agents, etc. I wouldn't count on someone being completely honest with me.
    Having casual sex leads to trouble; in other words, don't have sex with someone you don't know really well and intend on making at least a long term commitment to if not a permanent commitment.

    People who get duped into having sex under false pretenses are victims of fraud. It's a gray area, I will admit.

    I have more but that's enough for now.
     
  9. Sep 19, 2019 #9

    Alex.mc

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    Most certainly. This was not a minor crime involving perhaps a small pecuniary loss to the victim of something along those lines. The victim could potentially have found herself with an unwanted pregnancy, which holds risks in either childbirth or abortion. Potentially he could have transmitted STDs, or HIV.
    He could have changed this woman's life in a huge way, potentially even resulting in her death. All based upon a deception.

    People like him have an element of psychopathy in my view. Dangerous people who need to be treated as such.
     
  10. Sep 19, 2019 #10

    Chippy_Tea

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    How did the woman find out he hadn't had a vasectomy?
     
  11. Sep 19, 2019 #11

    phildo79

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    He banged her twice, then left in the middle of the night. He then sent her a text saying that he lied about the vasectomy. She got pregnant and had an abortion. He doesn't come across as the most decent bloke I've ever heard of.
     
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  12. Sep 19, 2019 #12

    PhilBrew

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    ... and, for a change, most of her questions about contraception (before they met up) and his lies about having had a vasectomy were documented as an incontrovertible evidence trail (they had the conversation by text message) ... so none of this "she says he said" stuff

    Cheers, PhilB
     
  13. Sep 19, 2019 #13

    jjsh

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    I think it is a bang on case of number 4 on @Dutto 's list, and therefore rape.

    The victim must have felt violated as well, as she didn't consent to having this guy's active sperm anywhere near her eggs, so it's 100% rape to me.
     
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  14. Sep 19, 2019 #14

    Chippy_Tea

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    Both the above are very good points and i agree with the second in my view rape means a person has been forced into having sex against their will he should have been jailed for causing pregnancy by deception.
     
  15. Sep 19, 2019 #15

    BeerCat

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    Where do you draw the line. Imagine if you were drunk and claimed to be a millionaire. Would it be rape if she found you out to be a pauper the next day or simply unlucky?
     
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  16. Sep 19, 2019 #16

    Richie_asg1

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    Sex as a result of deception.
    Does that mean that a lot of men can claim rape after bringing home a woman that then removes her false eyebrows, false complexion, false bra and false hair extensions?

    I would think that many men wake up with a different person than whom they took home.

    In Japan there is now underwear that increases the look of both the back and front of women - so you are not getting what you see on the packet.

    I think that rape should be limited to non consent - and that is it.

    What of the men that lie and say they are pilots - or have a decent income? Where will the line be drawn? (Good topic btw, and brave to suggest it)
     
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  17. Sep 19, 2019 #17

    LeeH

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    Rape no, another offence most certainly.
     
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  18. Sep 19, 2019 #18

    phildo79

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    Perhaps if he wasn't a serial rapist and 'probably' did this for his own sick amusement, the verdict wouldn't have been passed down. The fact she got pregnant and had an abortion is, I dare say, the reason she pressed charges. Because let's face it, she was clearly willing to have unprotected sex with the guy. She could have just told him to wear a condom, to be on the safe side.

    She was foolish for trusting a stranger. And he is an absolute scumbag for what he did. Although, given whom he is, it's hardly surprising behaviour. Why any bloke would lie about such a thing just to have unprotected sex, is beyond me (apart from this cnut).
     
  19. Sep 19, 2019 #19

    Dutto

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    WOW! Great replies, many thanks!

    The BBC Text Service didn't mention this! Sorry - but see below for confirmation.



    I've always thought that the old definitions of the various types of rape were valid and good old Wikipedia has some very up-to-date thoughts on the matter here ...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_deception

    The article explains that the act of rape can be carried out by women as well as men and for another "taboo" subject check out ...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_of_males

    The two articles make for very interesting reading.

    On a lighter note ...

    Back in the 1950's Lord Chief Justice Goddard was seen as a man without any sense of humour because he was never heard to make a quip or do anything to even raise a smile during a trial. He refuted this allegation by saying ...

    "Oh, I have a sense of humour alright.

    Only the other week I was sat in court on a day that was so hot the Court Usher had to open the windows to let a bit of cool air into the Courtroom.

    I had just sentenced three men to hang when someone walked past the window with a portable radio blaring away. The radio was playing the Eton Boating Song and I nearly burst out laughing."


    It took a few seconds for the listener to understand why. Then he remembered the line from the song that goes "And we'll all swing together!"

    They had real Judges back then! clapa clapa
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2019
  20. Sep 20, 2019 #20

    Leon103

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    Doubt he will get nowhere near a court with his appeal. When looking at the legal term 'consent you need to satisfy 3 points. The 3rd being the victim made a full and informed decision when giving consent. As she was lied to she wasn't aware of all the facts and therefore step 3 fails and there is no consent. There are many stated cases on this including men saying they are wearing a condom when they weren't = rape
     
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