This makes perfect sense to me and after trial and error with other methods this is the way that works best for me. ☺
Rehydrating Dry Yeast.
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This makes perfect sense to me and after trial and error with other methods this is the way that works best for me. ☺
I have rehydrated in the past and fermentation started really fast but as I am not usually in a huge rush I normally just stir it in as instructed, if sprinkling on top and leaving it is better for the yeast than stiring it in I will give it a try next time, l have seen this discussed in the beer forums before but I think it's a first for us wine makers.
johncrobinson
Landlord.
Yeast will not re-hydrate "Properly" in must.
There is considerable cell death if you do.
Why,???? For EXACTLY the same reasons that its hard to quench ones thirst by drinking sea water.!!
From a packet at first dried yeast are short of water.
Thats it water,Not sugar or nutrient.Just water.
Will adding dried yeast direct to the must work:> yes
Is it best practice ? :>no
You don't need airlocks, campden, heaters,demijohns,sanitisers etc, To make wine either but they do help.
Now certain young's products (yeast) have been modified to stand direct addition to the must without damage, It still remains the case for most yeasts re-hydration is best by a country mile.
One young's product that should not be re-hydrated is Super wine yeast compound, This should be added direct. As per instructions.
Finally ALL the top yeast manufacturers recommend re-hydration for their died yeast products and give advice on how to do it,Only takes 15 mins anyway.
N.B. Beer has nothing like the starting gravity that wines do so you can sprinkle dry without causing as much cell death.
Rant over
.
There is considerable cell death if you do.
Why,???? For EXACTLY the same reasons that its hard to quench ones thirst by drinking sea water.!!
From a packet at first dried yeast are short of water.
Thats it water,Not sugar or nutrient.Just water.
Will adding dried yeast direct to the must work:> yes
Is it best practice ? :>no
You don't need airlocks, campden, heaters,demijohns,sanitisers etc, To make wine either but they do help.
Now certain young's products (yeast) have been modified to stand direct addition to the must without damage, It still remains the case for most yeasts re-hydration is best by a country mile.
One young's product that should not be re-hydrated is Super wine yeast compound, This should be added direct. As per instructions.
Finally ALL the top yeast manufacturers recommend re-hydration for their died yeast products and give advice on how to do it,Only takes 15 mins anyway.
N.B. Beer has nothing like the starting gravity that wines do so you can sprinkle dry without causing as much cell death.
Rant over
.
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johncrobinson
Landlord.
OK hears a ranking on how to pitch yeast going from best to worst (in terms of performance)
BEST (1) Make a starter.
(2) Re-hydrate.
(3) Sprinkle dry on top.
Worst (4) Stir dry yeast in.
Super yeast compound is an exception because of the added nutrient in the mix.
(This is also the reason for the products abysmal shelf life once opened.)
BEST (1) Make a starter.
(2) Re-hydrate.
(3) Sprinkle dry on top.
Worst (4) Stir dry yeast in.
Super yeast compound is an exception because of the added nutrient in the mix.
(This is also the reason for the products abysmal shelf life once opened.)
I am not saying you are wrong but if that's the case why do all the different kits I make say stir it in and I have never had one fail.
I just sprinkle myself and generally my yeast starts pretty quick. However I have had the odd one have a lag time of a day or so maybe I just can't be ar%ed but it works for me
This is exactly where I'm at too, lol
This is very interesting info because when I did that orange and vanilla wine, I did the re-hydrate method and it just would not go! I had to rescue it with CML yeast! Why shouldn't you re-hydrate that particular yeast please John?
I am changing to use exclusively Lalvin yeast now (different strains obvs) so am going to try all four methods again with this decent stuff
If I could give my opinion on this one I would say it's because the manufacturers want to make it as easy as possible for people in case they sell to an idiot who doesn't have a clue what they're doing lol
Just to be clear I don't necessarily mean a beginner, just someone who is incapable of doing it. You're clearly not one of them but just making a point.If the kits are hard to use and have a lot of steps it might put people off buying them.
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I am going to try the sprinkle method next time I make a kit
Tommo 2
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Couldn’t agree more, definitely a good rantYeast will not re-hydrate "Properly" in must.
There is considerable cell death if you do.
Why,???? For EXACTLY the same reasons that its hard to quench ones thirst by drinking sea water.!!
From a packet at first dried yeast are short of water.
Thats it water,Not sugar or nutrient.Just water.
Will adding dried yeast direct to the must work:> yes
Is it best practice ? :>no
You don't need airlocks, campden, heaters,demijohns,sanitisers etc, To make wine either but they do help.
Now certain young's products (yeast) have been modified to stand direct addition to the must without damage, It still remains the case for most yeasts re-hydration is best by a country mile.
One young's product that should not be re-hydrated is Super wine yeast compound, This should be added direct. As per instructions.
Finally ALL the top yeast manufacturers recommend re-hydration for their died yeast products and give advice on how to do it,Only takes 15 mins anyway.
N.B. Beer has nothing like the starting gravity that wines do so you can sprinkle dry without causing as much cell death.
Rant over
.
Braufather
Landlord.
i always intend to rehydrate but mostly end up not doing it.
how Long does it take 200ml of boiling water to cool to 25c, always too long for me.
how Long does it take 200ml of boiling water to cool to 25c, always too long for me.
I am also going to try inverting the sugar to see if that helps at all. Granulated obvs.
johncrobinson
Landlord.
Spot on with the Kits reply Lisa
Kit are meant for anybody to make not just winemakers
Besides I never said the sprinkle method was "verboten" Just sub-optimal (for wine)
The reason is something called Osmosis and osmotic stress.
Osmotic stress is dependent on gravity which is why the method is fine for beers.
Beers have lower SG (starting gravity)
Lower SG = lower osmotic stress.
Also some beer yeasts are top fermenting anyway.
Now as to the reason Young's "super wine yeast compound" is an exception.
Its is not only sugar that causes osmotic stress, Salts will also cause exactly the same stress.
This product is not a pure yeast and contains nutrient "Salts".
So re-hydrating in water confers no advantage,You would be re-hydrating in salt water (not good)
Some manufacturers are actively researching methods of pre conditioning the yeast to prevent the damage caused by pitching dry yeast, So the advice regarding re-hydrating may change in the future.
It is a fact that a lot of the yeast in a sachet are dead to start with and more will die and be weakened from direct pitching giving less yeast to start the colony. The effect is to slow the start of fermentation down.
Also since the yeast so pitched are not in top shape,Final alcohol tolerance can also be affected.
Its all a matter of good practice based on sound reasoning.
Personally I don't want to pass on to future generations bad practices when i already know better.
However given that a lot of the people posting on the wine threads are absolute beginners it is sometimes necessary keep it simple to avoid losing them.
And i accept that.
Kit are meant for anybody to make not just winemakers
Besides I never said the sprinkle method was "verboten" Just sub-optimal (for wine)
The reason is something called Osmosis and osmotic stress.
Osmotic stress is dependent on gravity which is why the method is fine for beers.
Beers have lower SG (starting gravity)
Lower SG = lower osmotic stress.
Also some beer yeasts are top fermenting anyway.
Now as to the reason Young's "super wine yeast compound" is an exception.
Its is not only sugar that causes osmotic stress, Salts will also cause exactly the same stress.
This product is not a pure yeast and contains nutrient "Salts".
So re-hydrating in water confers no advantage,You would be re-hydrating in salt water (not good)
Some manufacturers are actively researching methods of pre conditioning the yeast to prevent the damage caused by pitching dry yeast, So the advice regarding re-hydrating may change in the future.
It is a fact that a lot of the yeast in a sachet are dead to start with and more will die and be weakened from direct pitching giving less yeast to start the colony. The effect is to slow the start of fermentation down.
Also since the yeast so pitched are not in top shape,Final alcohol tolerance can also be affected.
Its all a matter of good practice based on sound reasoning.
Personally I don't want to pass on to future generations bad practices when i already know better.
However given that a lot of the people posting on the wine threads are absolute beginners it is sometimes necessary keep it simple to avoid losing them.
And i accept that.
Thank you for the info John. All good stuff as usual!
I need to learn how to make a starter now, as I've hydrated before but not made an actual starter. Can you (or anyone) link me to something to explain please?
I need to learn how to make a starter now, as I've hydrated before but not made an actual starter. Can you (or anyone) link me to something to explain please?
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Cwrw666
Landlord.
Here's a thought:
generally a packet of yeast for beer is 11g. If you sprinkle you lose some of that to cell death. If you rehydrate less so. Muntons on the other hand always insisted 5g was enough, though they usually recomended rehydration, and usually it was ok. (unless it was a 2 can kit and then you were f*****)
So if you rehydrate 11g are you simply grossly over pitching?
And why can manufacturers never make up their mind. You buy a pack of yeast and it says rehydrate. Next time you buy it it says sprinkle. And vice versa.
generally a packet of yeast for beer is 11g. If you sprinkle you lose some of that to cell death. If you rehydrate less so. Muntons on the other hand always insisted 5g was enough, though they usually recomended rehydration, and usually it was ok. (unless it was a 2 can kit and then you were f*****)
So if you rehydrate 11g are you simply grossly over pitching?
And why can manufacturers never make up their mind. You buy a pack of yeast and it says rehydrate. Next time you buy it it says sprinkle. And vice versa.
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Chuck it in, give it a shake. Job done.
Or Chuck it in and don't shake or stir job done.
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johncrobinson
Landlord.
One thing I have noticed about this thread is we have both beer and winemakers chipping in.
This can be confusing as due to an on average 100%plus difference in starting gravity the yeast should be handled somewhat differently in each case (as i explained earlier).
This can be confusing as due to an on average 100%plus difference in starting gravity the yeast should be handled somewhat differently in each case (as i explained earlier).
I made an 11.42% barley wine recently and you can be sure I rehydrated the mj Belgian ale yeast. I noticed a reduction in lag time since I've rehydrated.
I did used to sprinkle onto wort and my earlier brews were lower abv so less of an issue there. But for big beers it can save you from buying a second packet to avoid underpitching on big beers.
If the yeast is good for say 10% and your brewing a 4% beer theres surely more headroom to cope with not following optimal yeast health instructions. The other variable will be the temps the yeast has been stored at before you get it hence why you may experience the odd packet that's slow to start fermenting. If not rehydrating. Will all brewing I'd suggest whatever works for you if it makes what you want. That's what matters.
I did used to sprinkle onto wort and my earlier brews were lower abv so less of an issue there. But for big beers it can save you from buying a second packet to avoid underpitching on big beers.
If the yeast is good for say 10% and your brewing a 4% beer theres surely more headroom to cope with not following optimal yeast health instructions. The other variable will be the temps the yeast has been stored at before you get it hence why you may experience the odd packet that's slow to start fermenting. If not rehydrating. Will all brewing I'd suggest whatever works for you if it makes what you want. That's what matters.
johncrobinson
Landlord.
Hi Lisa,
There is lots of good info on line about rehydration and making starters.
Just about any fruit juice can be used with about a teaspoon of sugar to the liter and a good pinch of added nutrient. I aim for a gravity of about 1.040 but its not critical.
This should be done about a day or two before making the wine.
Ideally You want a good head on the bottle when you pitch
If there is no sign of activity don't pitch it.This way you can tell in advance if your yeast is ok or not.
One thing i will say is when i pitch actively fermenting yeast into a demijohn of must,The airlock is normally in action within the hour.!!!!
It is very comforting to know that your wine is underway,Rather than waiting a day or two to see if anything is happening also the yeast working so quickly cuts down any risk of spoilage or off flavours developing.
There is lots of good info on line about rehydration and making starters.
Just about any fruit juice can be used with about a teaspoon of sugar to the liter and a good pinch of added nutrient. I aim for a gravity of about 1.040 but its not critical.
This should be done about a day or two before making the wine.
Ideally You want a good head on the bottle when you pitch
If there is no sign of activity don't pitch it.This way you can tell in advance if your yeast is ok or not.
One thing i will say is when i pitch actively fermenting yeast into a demijohn of must,The airlock is normally in action within the hour.!!!!
It is very comforting to know that your wine is underway,Rather than waiting a day or two to see if anything is happening also the yeast working so quickly cuts down any risk of spoilage or off flavours developing.
Thank you John!
