Souring beer

[Donjon]

I'm wanting to try to do a post boil sour and I was wondering whether you can do this by adding Lactobacillus or Bret when bottling.

I'm trying to avoid contaminating any of my gear unnecessarily and I was wondering whether this would be a possible method.

I am planning a kettle sour very soon, but I was wanting something which would require more aging, something slightly less 'contrived'.

 

[clib]

I've not done a lot of souring but you can add bacteria post boil, yes. Which is how most sour beer is traditionally made.

You can also use Philly Sour, which is a yeast that you use like any ale yeast, and which produces lactic acid. I've just used it for the first time. It's not one for ageing though, it produces a beer like a kettle soured beer. Not complex like an aged sour.

 

[Sadfield]

What beers are your reference for sourness?

Long term souring really requires Pediococcus or/and acetobacter, depending on which flavour profile you want. And will require some venting of co2. Brettanomyces alone will result in a tartness, rather than sourness. Adding brettanomyces to bottles is something you want to avoid, or you'll likely end up over carbonating them to dangerous levels.

The cheap, easy and safe, in terms of cross contamination, way to begin, is to get a few cheap demijohns. Put some beer in and add the dregs from bottles of sour or bretted beers, such as Gueuzes, Orval or anything wild fermented. Then hide them somewhere for 6 months with an air lock on.

 

[clib]

Orval uses brett, it is kept in tanks for a few weeks before bottling. I've done this myself, successfully, with Orval dregs, the gravity dropped to just above 1.000 in about a month iirc. Wasn't sour though, different bretts do different things and yes, tart rather than sour.

 

[Donjon]

I've fairly limited experience of soured brews. I've had a few which I assume are kettle sours. Sour Solstice was very enjoyable, as was Salty Kiss. I also had the Duchess de bourgogne, which was interesting, but I was pleased to be sharing the bottle with my buddy.

I'm definitely going to try a kettle and then something which takes longer to ferment. I'm currently gathering information!

 

[Donjon]

Orval uses brett, it is kept in tanks for a few weeks before bottling. I've done this myself, successfully, with Orval dregs, the gravity dropped to just above 1.000 in about a month iirc. Wasn't sour though, different bretts do different things and yes, tart rather than sour.

Yes, I've had Orval, it's so dry, it's got the mouth feel of soda water! I enjoyed it, but wasn't sure. It didn't conform to any of my expectations

 

[Donjon]

What beers are your reference for sourness?

Long term souring really requires Pediococcus or/and acetobacter, depending on which flavour profile you want. And will require some venting of co2. Brettanomyces alone will result in a tartness, rather than sourness. Adding brettanomyces to bottles is something you want to avoid, or you'll likely end up over carbonating them to dangerous levels.

The cheap, easy and safe, in terms of cross contamination, way to begin, is to get a few cheap demijohns. Put some beer in and add the dregs from bottles of sour or bretted beers, such as Gueuzes, Orval or anything wild fermented. Then hide them somewhere for 6 months with an air lock on.

Lovely. I guess this is what I'll do then! An exciting, experimental area of brewing!

 

[Donjon]

My next brew will be a Belgian golden ale of about 8/9%, could I use some of this to add some dregs from Orvile to?

Do I need to hop lightly, or is it just Lactobacillus which is impeded by hops?

 

[clib]

My next brew will be a Belgian golden ale of about 8/9%, could I use some of this to add some dregs from Orvile to?

Do I need to hop lightly, or is it just Lactobacillus which is impeded by hops?

Don't use Orville dregs, it'll turn green and start talking in a strange voice.

They add the brett after primary fermentation with a regular ale yeast has completed. You can use hops with brett, Orval is dry hopped with Styrian Goldings. It's pretty much an English bitter recipe, Orval, with added brett. Perhaps like an old English pale ale when brett was lurking in the wooden casks. The brett will increase the ABV a fair bit, so be careful. Orval starts at about 1.054, I think, and ends up around 7%. You can add Orval to any beer.

Philly Sour yeast will save you a lot of hassle if you're thinking of making s kettle sour. Same kind of result, using a standard fermentation process, no fannying about souring in the kettle and hoping it works out. Easy and reliable.

 

[dad_of_jon]

My next brew will be a Belgian golden ale of about 8/9%, could I use some of this to add some dregs from Orvile to?

Do I need to hop lightly, or is it just Lactobacillus which is impeded by hops?

Here's one I made earlier : Face off brew 43 - 11/09/2018

3kg richies extra light dme
500g DWE
450g golden syrup
dissoved in around 6 litres of boiled bottled water.
topped up to 20 litres
pitched the dregs of a bottle of boon oude gueze and clear strained liquid from a tub of asda genuine greek yogurt at 25C
purged headspace with co2

1.067 og
01/08/2018 - 1.035 - ph4
19/08/2018 - 1.012 - ph4
did not prime - bottled at 1.012 as it will get down to 1.001 ish over time.
7.22%

I didn't use any hops at all.

 

[Sadfield]

Splitting off a portion of the belgian golden ale wort before pitching the Belgian Yeast, and fermenting it with Philly Sour and then long secondary with Orval dregs would be a good thing to try. Sourness, plus the flavour complexity of the brettanomyces.

 

[Donjon]

Splitting off a portion of the belgian golden ale wort before pitching the Belgian Yeast, and fermenting it with Philly Sour and then long secondary with Orval dregs would be a good thing to try. Sourness, plus the flavour complexity of the brettanomyces.

Unfortunately I'm brewing my golden ale tomorrow and only have my belgian ale yeast. I'm going to wait until it's done, bottle half and rack off the other half to add some Orval to.

 

[Donjon]

Don't use Orville dregs, it'll turn green and start talking in a strange voice.

They add the brett after primary fermentation with a regular ale yeast has completed. You can use hops with brett, Orval is dry hopped with Styrian Goldings. It's pretty much an English bitter recipe, Orval, with added brett. Perhaps like an old English pale ale when brett was lurking in the wooden casks. The brett will increase the ABV a fair bit, so be careful. Orval starts at about 1.054, I think, and ends up around 7%. You can add Orval to any beer.

Philly Sour yeast will save you a lot of hassle if you're thinking of making s kettle sour. Same kind of result, using a standard fermentation process, no fannying about souring in the kettle and hoping it works out. Easy and reliable.

I may well pick up some Philly sour before doing the intended kettle sour. It does mean I have some Wyeast 1007 with no home though

 

[clib]

I may well pick up some Philly sour before doing the intended kettle sour. It does mean I have some Wyeast 1007 with no home though

That's easily fixed.

 

[MrL73]

Here's one I made earlier : Face off brew 43 - 11/09/2018

did not prime - bottled at 1.012 as it will get down to 1.001 ish over time.

That's a big old drop in gravity while bottled. Isn't that going to be a bit dodgy, pressure wise?