Sparging in an all in one system

[hoppyscotty]

I have a Brewzilla and I constantly read that for sparring to do it slowly and take. your time. But in reality the rate at which you can sparge is dictated by the speed at which the wort drains through the malt and not by how fast you add the sparge water into the top. In an all in one system if you just pull up the malt pipe then you've got what you've got and you've got to pour the sparge water in on top at whatever rate its coming out at the bottom and in my experience that varies from grain bill to grain bill...or maybe I'm missing something fundamental. Some grains bills I've had the sparge rate has been so high that I've almost poured in the sparge water and its done and dusted in a few minutes, other grain bills its takes ages as it slows drips through and I'm addiing very slowly.

In a more traditional system you add sparge water at the same rate you run off the wort from the bottom and I want to try to replicate this as closely as possible with my Brewzilla.

So I've been thinking recently about using a winch or pulley, pouring in sparge water into the top so you maintain a good few inches head of sparge water on top of the grain and pull up the malt basket very slowly so over time you're pulling the grain out of the wort and the water within the grain is gradually being replaced by the fresh sparge water on top, so by the time you've pulled the malt basket all the way up you've used up all your sparge water and it is free to run off under gravity, but before then you've controlled the rate the wort and sparge water runs through the grain. This way you can control your sparge rate to ensure you get effective rinsing of the malt.

Anyone else had this thought or come up with another way of managing the speed of the sparge on an all in one system?

 

[Cheshire Cat]

I don't have an all in one system but what do might be relevant. When I've finished mashing in a stand along mash tun I drain the contents into my burco or sometimes my plastic fermenter. I then batch sparge so I put all of the sparge water onto the grain and stir. I then leave this for 20 minutes with a stir at 10. Then drain into the boiler. Lifting the grain pipe seems like hell.

 

[chthon]

On the Flemish homebrew forum people recommend the same solution (use a winch to pull up the malt pipe in small steps). You are not the only one with this problem.

 

[hoppyscotty]

Thanks, not a problem as such...but just hard to control the sparge rate and very dependant on the grain bill. If alot of adjuncts it can be quite slow, if not it can run through quite fast. I'm relying on pre-crushed grains so could go to crushing my own.

I was thinking about it following a tour of a micro brewery where the brewer was talking about the difficulties with their set up in controlling the sparge rate and he was coming up with solutions to manage it.

Batch sparging would be difficult unless I transferred into another vessel I think.

 

[Clint]

My sparge in a stand alone tun takes about an hour! I maintain water above the mash and add and remove a litre or so at a time..whether its right or wrong it's what I do.

 

[hoppyscotty]

So are you doing a form of batch and fly sparging combined? I.e. lauter a litre, add a litre of sparge water, leave it for a while then repeat? so the grain soaks for a time as the wort slowly dilutes more and more?

 

[The Baron]

Hi Hoppyscotty I just do a jug sparge with approx 9ltrs after lifting the malt pipe. I find the time spent doing long slow sparges does not quantify the extra amount of efficiency I get. My time is more precious than getting a few extra points as it is I never get less than 70% and usually between 75% and 80%.
Its your choice but the bragging rights for that bit more efficiency is IMO not worth the extra hour plus of my time.
Ps it does not make your beer taste better just slightly stronger ABV

 

[Pete Mc]

I've also got a Brewzilla. I thought the slow sparge was more to stop the grain bed compressing under the weight of water added on top, I tend to sparge 2 litres at a time let that visibly clear and repeat.

 

[hoppyscotty]

Thanks...was just intrigues because everything you read goes on about taking your time with the sparge and sometimes it takes a while and sometimes it doesn't, depends how sticky the mash is so was just interested in methods to control the speed.

Also I take before sparge and after sparge gravity readings and sparging does seem to dilute the wort quite a lot, a reduction of maybe 10 points or so. I usually achieve numbers (there or there abouts), but just intrigued about the process and the constant claim about having to do it slowly.

 

[hoppyscotty]

I've also got a Brewzilla. I thought the slow sparge was more to stop the grain bed compressing under the weight of water added on top, I tend to sparge 2 litres at a time let that visibly clear and repeat.

I whole heartedly agree. The worse thing you can do is lift the malt pipe and let it drain then start sparging. But I think removing the malt pipe straignt out in one go will cause the grain bed to compress - if you think its like removing a tea bag out of a mug, so think its probably better to start sparging before you pull the malt pipe up.

 

[The Baron]

Don't believe everything you read as there are always the other argument and I can vouch that putting a 2 litre jug in then another with a few minutes between will do the trick.
I have done this for years so practice is better than theory for me.
It works and I bet loads do it my way
Its your choice try both and see which works for you but its the difference between a 4 hour brew and 6 hours for a few points

 

[2Beers]

the inflow is supposed to match the outflow AFAIK, so if my malt pipe is running like a horse over cobbles I'll be pouring that sparge water in pronto.

 

[RoomWithABrew]

@hoppyscotty
I completely agree with you about sparge speed and probably inefficiency.
The sparge pretty much can happen as rapidly as you pour in most cases. Unless your bill is rammed with wheat, oats etc.

I've tried using a lot more mash water and tried no sparge but I'm using the guten 70 so I do have capacity on some brews to do that.

I'm now tending towards lift and drain, force the top plate down to compress the grain in the malt pipe as much as possible and squeeze out as many " first runnings " as possible. Then pour on a litre of hot water with repeated pressing down on the top plate.
I'm letting that drain a lot before adding more and if the top plate doesn't squeeze down I just remove it and push the jug in to squeeze the grain and then top up again.
But I know it's not a great method but it's been better than pour straight through from before.

After the first few litres of sparge I tend to remove the malt pipe and stand it on a ferment bucket. It's a perfet fit for the guten 70 and pour wait squeeze pour, then I add the liquid in during the boil.
That said the final liquid 2.5 litres I didn't need was at 1.040 as I'd hit my numbers so there's definitely sugars left behind.
For info weekend Saison.
7kg pilsner, 2 kg 2row, 1kg wheat malt, 1kg vienna Preconditioned and milled 0.5mm Maltzilla, 10ml glucanase
44 litre mash water, 15 litre sparge so 50.5 litre in kettle pre boil 1.053
1.6 litre loss to hops ( 120 g pellets ) and the boil off and tubes meant 23.5 litres into each fermenter at 1.057.

Not great performance but better than I've had with just lift and pour.

Still some optimising to go. Perhaps sparge the top grains and dunk the bottom half of the grains could work but I don't have a container big enough to try this.

 

[London]

Don't believe everything you read as there are always the other argument and I can vouch that putting a 2 litre jug in then another with a few minutes between will do the trick.
I have done this for years so practice is better than theory for me.
It works and I bet loads do it my way
Its your choice try both and see which works for you but its the difference between a 4 hour brew and 6 hours for a few points

+1, 2 litres at a time and always use rice hulls usually takes about 20-30 minutes.

 

[dcbrookes]

I don't have an all in one system but what do might be relevant. When I've finished mashing in a stand along mash tun I drain the contents into my burco or sometimes my plastic fermenter. I then batch sparge so I put all of the sparge water onto the grain and stir. I then leave this for 20 minutes with a stir at 10. Then drain into the boiler. Lifting the grain pipe seems like hell.

I do the same. When I was using the Brewmonk AIO I found lifting the malt pipe a real nightmare as I had the BM on a work surface in a conservatory with a lowish ceiling. Now I have gone back to using a separate mash tun I have found I can get better efficiency using a batch sparge that with my rotating sparge arm, and is is so much easier!

 

[Cheshire Cat]

It seems to me that sparging is the achiles heel for AIO systems.

 

[Andyroo Brew]

I agree with the others I do a 1L jug keeping an inch above the grain bed until I reach my pre-boil volume. Definitely rice hulls and use the top plate to ensure uniform sparging.

 

[nickjdavis]

Most all in ones recirculate during the mash. This is something that simply does not happen with a traditional infusion mash in a standalone mashtun (like a converted coolbox that many folks use). In such a mash tun, where the mash has just been sat there and there has been no real active mixing during the infusion, you need to sparge slowly to ensure that as much of the sugar gets washed out as possible and to ensure that the run-off is slow so that it does not suck the mash down causing the sparge to stick.

An all-in-one is simply a different mashing system that operates differently from the traditional mash tun....the recirculation alone will drive efficiency upwards as it washes more sugars out of the mash, which in turn means you can sparge "differently" (not necessarily better or worse) than you would in a traditional standalone pot.

This is the problem when folks try to apply a brewing process that works on one system, to a different system that operates differently....they suddenly start seeing issues with the "other" system that in practice do not really exist....you just need to adapt your process to suit the new system.

Granted that, when you lift the malt pipe up in an all in one, there will be some settling of the malt in the pipe....but this, in practice (unless using a large proportion of say wheat or similar), has very little effect on the sparge process.....you can simply carefully jug sparge water on top of the mash and let it drain through or, you can still use a rotating sparge arm or similar (I use a silicone shower head) to create a sprinkle effect. By regulating the flow from the vessel holding the sparge water you can control the time that the sparge takes. No you wont be matching the flow in with the flow out....but you don't need to on an all in one.

The only thing you wont have (unless you have a higher rate of flow) is the mash constantly sitting in mash liquore and other than helping the malt to "float" a bit allowing the sparge liquor to mix easily and wash the sugars out (which has largely been achieved in an all in one by the recirculation process) the only other benefit to this is it prevents that flow of sparge water disturbing the grain bed.....and if its as slow as it should be then disturbance is not an issue.

I'm not saying to the OP that he shouldn't find a way to raise his malt pipe slowly.....if he feels that it would benefit his beer then give it a go....it certainly wont make things worse....but what I am saying is that in all likelihood it isn't as big an issue (and that's the opinion of someone who has used both all in ones and 3 vessel systems) as people are making out....all in ones have compensatory features/functionality that, as I've said previously, mean you can sparge in a different manner to what traditional systems require you to do.

 

[RoomWithABrew]

Most all in ones recirculate during the mash.

The only thing you wont have (unless you have a higher rate of flow) .....and if its as slow as it should be then disturbance is not an issue.

Any all in one without a pump say a gen 1 or 2 robobrew and others don't recirculate, whether that is most I'm not sure.

But as per the OP the issue is the high rate of flow and getting it " as slow as it should be " is the issue.

If the cooler mash tun had a perforated bottom straight into the boiler the same concern would be raised.

 

[nickjdavis]

Any all in one without a pump say a gen 1 or 2 robobrew and others don't recirculate, whether that is most I'm not sure.

But as per the OP the issue is the high rate of flow and getting it " as slow as it should be " is the issue.

If the cooler mash tun had a perforated bottom straight into the boiler the same concern would be raised.

Granted not every all-in-one has a recirculation facility...I believe the Brewzilla used by the OP does though.

However, the point I was making is "why does the sparge flow rate need to be as slow on an all-in-one as it would be in a normal mash tun"?

The issues that are faced with a traditional mash tun are different to those when mashing in an all-in-one....therefore the process doesn't necessarily have to be the same.