Doing more research on a Tripel Karmeliet clone and something odd struck me. The clone recipe worked on here have 6% sugar in the recipe which isn't surprising but they've tested the FG as 1.015 and to get that with Wyeast 1214 I'm looking at a 69c mash. If I drop the sugar and mash at 65c I get the same 8.4% abv and I doubt I'll be able to tell the difference, for what it's worth brulosophy got indistinguishable beers ending 10 points apart. Might also try a step mash but is there any way to predict the outcome of those except by experience? I used a regime on my Helles that was meant to be equivalent to a 67c single infusion but I got slightly higher attenuation, no way to know if it was the yeast or the mash. I do often get slightly higher attenuation on the 2nd or 3rd generation of a yeast.