Yes Electric is really safe

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Graz

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The technology still has a way to come. There's a lot that can mess up lithium batteries in a big way (i.e. catch fire), over charging, over discharging, damage to the cell itself, voltage imbalance between the cells, a lot to consider when developing the software and hardware to manage them.

Mind you petrol and diesel cars can also catch fire in spectacular fashions so it's not exactly a new issue.
 

Galena

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My main concern with electric vehicles is the 'true' cost of batteries, the info may be out there but I have seen no references to long term battery life and replacement battery costs, when they enter the second hand market how do you value the batteries?
 

Bill_g

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My main concern with electric vehicles is the 'true' cost of batteries, the info may be out there but I have seen no references to long term battery life and replacement battery costs, when they enter the second hand market how do you value the batteries?
This has to be the worst nightmare for Hyundai and for all BEV & lithium battery manufacturers really as it quite understandably undermines public confidence in the technology.
Regarding battery lifetime much fear of short lifetime is based on mobile phone and computer battery lifetime. What perhaps is not generally appreciated is that whilst all lithium cells operate on the same lithium ion transport principle the cell design is an engineered cocktail where many factors can be traded off one against another e.g. you could design a cell to have an extremely high capacity and survive only a few charge cycles or conversely could be designed for low capacity and survive many cycles. Price is clearly a driving factor too. Due to the worldwide push for EV enormous investment is being made into battery technology. This is bound to lead to improvements in capacity, lifetime and lowering of price. But improvement will be gradual barring a sudden breakthrough, which we can all hope for but looks unlikely.
Safety is an interesting aspect, lithium ion cells contain a lot of energy in a small space. When the cell goes wrong this energy is released as heat. This can lead to an avalanche of cell failures in the battery pack with quite exciting consequences. There are all sorts of things which can cause catastrophic failure. These can be divided broadly into cell chemistry related failures and failures due to charging or discharging outside the safety envelope which the manufacturer defines for the cell. Sounds to me like the Hyundai issues straddle both types of failure hence the only satisfactory solution is a recall.
The fact that battery technology is continuously advancing means that it's bound to have impact on vehicle resale value. Very very roughly if you work on a battery price of £100 per kWh this will give a guide to how much the battery pack costs. However making a battery pack modular and replaceable adds significantly to the cost of manufacture of the vehicle. It's feasible therefore that the battery and vehicle lifetime will be essentially the same for some vehicles.
Some researchers are working on the concept of using large numbers of old vehicle battery packs for grid energy storage. The fact that they are operating at a fraction of original capacity would not matter in that application. Equally the possibilty that the vehicle has to be scrapped to remove the pack would not preclude their re-use.
Apologies for the long post, but I've been looking into all this for a future talk to our local Cafe Scientifique & couldn't resist a bit of a brain dump, it could have been much much longer!
 

Chippy_Tea

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This is the future for electric vehicles -

Faulty batteries will be detected at the charging stations.


 
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Bill_g

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This is the future for electric vehicles -

Faulty batteries will be detected at the charging stations.


The vehicle market is very large and there are likely to be several competing battery fit methodologies. The argument is that the lowest cost & lightest vehicle structure would be to build the battery as part of the vehicle chassis. This is the line that Tesla is following & also supported (I believe) by Sandy Munro the US car manufacturing guru. But if a manufacturer could make a quick battery refit system work at low cost then I'd agree it could be a market beater. A lot will come down to consumer acceptance rather than raw technology, although price is a very major factor in the end. Also there are some lithium batteries currently at the research stage which would have a lifetime far exveeding what is normally expected of a private vehicle.
 

Galena

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I wonder if they will glue the batteries in like Apple do with their laptops and other mobile devices, forcing the owner to buy a new car when the batteries life is over? :laugh8:
 

Bill_g

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I wonder if they will glue the batteries in like Apple do with their laptops and other mobile devices, forcing the owner to buy a new car when the batteries life is over? :laugh8:
No joke really because the answer is yes. (some brief info here but also see Tesla Battery Day videos if you have an hour to spare)
It's the way to make cheapest & lightest EV, but of course may not be acceptable to the consumer & might fail on those grounds. But in the not too distant future if a battery can be relied upon to do say 250,000 miles before its performance is compromised then who would care?
 

Galena

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But in the not too distant future if a battery can be relied upon to do say 250,000 miles before its performance is compromised then who would care?
The person who buys it at 240,000 miles maybe, but seriously yes but it's still an if.
 

LeeH

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82000 batteries heading for your local landfill. How very green.
 

Rodcx500z

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Yes they are very green not, luckily i will never have to own one due to age, now hydrogen i would buy tomorrow it's the future
 

Bill_g

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82000 batteries heading for your local landfill. How very green.
Not much chance of that, the lithium content will be too valuable & will be recycled.
It's intriguing to see people expressing an aversion to technology on the basis of what seems like zero knowledge :confused:
I'd be grateful if you'd explain it will be an excellent case example for my future tech talk.
 

Alastair70

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My understanding is that the biggest pollution contribution made by a car is not related to its manufacture, but to the fuel that it burns over what is typically a 150,000 mile life span. ICEs may be less polluting to make than EVs but they don’t take long catching up.
Recalls are nothing new in the auto industry and it’s as wrong to assume this recall means EVs are a bad technology as it would be to justify some prejudice about Korean car manufacturers for example.
 

trummy

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Our car has made 144k but I wonder how many actually make that? I have read that technology now has reached a 20 min recharge - that makes electric a reasonable alternative. In China they are knocking out cars for less than £4k - simple, no frills and a 30 mile range but that would suffice for the vast majority of my journey's. As long as it was quick enough off the line I would consider one.
 

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