You can't turn the clock back, or can you?

[terrym]

It seems that there isn't a day that goes by at the present time when someone is accused of or owns up to some sexual harassment incident or worse from years ago. Last week it was Harvey Weinstein (who I confess I'd never previously heard of), this week Kevin Spacey and now Michael Fallon. Who will be next?
The people that did these things or are alleged to have done them are all in the public eye. And I'm sure that most people believe that what was put up with years ago is now no longer acceptable. But for me there is a world of difference with the stuff that Saville got up to and someone being inappropriately touched by someone at an event forty years ago
So why are we seeing a rise in the number of incidents being reported.
Is it that we now live in a society keen to hear about any celebrity indiscretions, fuelled by media vying with each other to satisfy this interest?
Does society want to cleanse itself of past wrong doings?
Are victims alleged or otherwise right to raise issues about things that happened years ago?
What about all the things that have happened in the real world, say in the normal workplace, will they now get turned over?
And how will it end, in a society which has, on one hand for example, all sorts of pornography on the internet, and yet can still 'tut tut' about a celebrity putting their hand on someone's knee thirty years ago?

 

[Clint]

It seems apart from the spacey one its all women accusing men...I wonder if any men will come forward with similar accusations?

 

[Gunge]

It seems apart from the spacey one its all women accusing men...I wonder if any men will come forward with similar accusations?

Apart from one or two exceptions, I'd say they were attention / free money seekers. Someone set the ball rolling and now it's gathering speed. Hell, if some tidy bird came on strong with me, I'd be flattered not go running to the cops screaming 'rape' or whatever.

 

[Cwrw666]

Won't be long before everyone has to carry permission forms with them...

 

[MyQul]

Won't be long before everyone has to carry permission forms with them...

"....do you mind signing this before we have a bit my dear?" :lol:

 

[Chippy_Tea]

The woman in the Fallon case has said if he resigned because of the knee touch it has been a witch hunt.

 

[Thumper]

It's a simple case of people feeling more empowered to stand up for themselves.

Partly it's a case of culture moving on. I think we all acknowledge that in the past this sort of thing was considered much more acceptable than it is today. People just put up with it because no one thought it was a problem.

Partly it's a case of the victims being in a more powerful position. The case of Harvey Weinstein is particularly good example of this. In the movie industry, you do not mess with Harvey Weinstein, not if you want any sort of career afterwards. He deliberately preyed on up and coming, relatively disposable actors. Many of those actors are now established enough that they can accuse Weinstein without fear of any significant repercussions. Angelina Jolie, for example.

I think they are absolutely right to raise it as soon as they feel secure enough to do so. It's not fair or right that their attacker got away with it all those years ago due to nothing more than a power imbalance and public apathy.

 

[RichieBeer]

The woman in the Fallon case has said if he resigned because of the knee touch it has been a witch hunt.

Yes, to be fair to her, she has said that if he has resigned because he touched her knee 15 years ago it would be the most ridiculous resignation ever.

How are you supposed to meet anyone of the opposite sex these days (or the same sex for that matter)? It seems if you try and flirt with someone hoping for a date, unless they say "yes", you'll get arrested for inappropriate behaviour and sexual harassment.

 

[Clint]

Back to the 1500's where a gentle man would indicate his interest in a lady with the offering of a love token in the former of a silver coins, usually a sixpence, bent into a s shape.

 

[terrym]

It's a simple case of people feeling more empowered to stand up for themselves.

Partly it's a case of culture moving on. I think we all acknowledge that in the past this sort of thing was considered much more acceptable than it is today. People just put up with it because no one thought it was a problem.

Partly it's a case of the victims being in a more powerful position. The case of Harvey Weinstein is particularly good example of this. In the movie industry, you do not mess with Harvey Weinstein, not if you want any sort of career afterwards. He deliberately preyed on up and coming, relatively disposable actors. Many of those actors are now established enough that they can accuse Weinstein without fear of any significant repercussions. Angelina Jolie, for example.

I think they are absolutely right to raise it as soon as they feel secure enough to do so. It's not fair or right that their attacker got away with it all those years ago due to nothing more than a power imbalance and public apathy.

I agree with most of what you have said. :thumb:
And for people to raise incidents that were definitely illegal back in the day is justified. However even in those cases, like rape, there is a grey area. And human memory plays a big part. I certainly can't remember most of what I was doing thirty years ago (or even last week sometimes!!), and even when I can the memory is probably selective and perhaps distorted. As for seemingly trivial events, sadly that's just part of life I'm afraid, and to raise them now when social expectations are different is questionable, and you have to wonder what motivates such revelations.

 

[MyQul]

Back to the 1500's where a gentle man would indicate his interest in a lady with the offering of a love token in the former of a silver coins, usually a sixpence, bent into a s shape.

So she couldnt spend it? Tight bugger

 

[Thumper]

I agree with most of what you have said. :thumb:
And for people to raise incidents that were definitely illegal back in the day is justified. However even in those cases, like rape, there is a grey area. And human memory plays a big part. I certainly can't remember most of what I was doing thirty years ago (or even last week sometimes!!), and even when I can the memory is probably selective and perhaps distorted. As for seemingly trivial events, sadly that's just part of life I'm afraid, and to raise them now when social expectations are different is questionable, and you have to wonder what motivates such revelations.

What seems trivial to you may not seem trivial to others, and I can guarantee you would remember an event you found traumatic, whether you wanted to or not.

Fallon's case may have been an inappropriate but relatively harmless touch of the knee, but most of the high profile cases raised recently have been much more serious.

 

[Ajhutch]

'Sir' Michael Fallon has not resigned because he touched a journalist on the knee 15 years ago. He's resigned because he knows he's been up to no good much more recently and is worried about it coming out. (Good way to stop it coming out, keep it in in the first place). He was the one that the PM always sent on TV to defuse stories like this and he feared becoming the story. Not noble, not a victim of a witch hunt.

Not being discussed much by the way, Michael Fallon has been married since 1986.


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[Fil]

Kudos to everyone coming forward now and in the future.

Everyone standing proud and ignoring the risk of the usual slurs and mudslinging that accusers of sexual misconduct suffer is worthy of our admiration imho.


and there is no need to judge folk 30 years ago with today's standards, rape and sexual molestation were illegal way back then too..

 

[Dexter101]

I think there very much seems to have been an acceptance (or covered up) of this in certain high profile industries. If you work at tescos and your boss propositioned you, you would probably feel able to tell them to go jump and report them. If you are a new actress and the potential for multi million pound contracts is on the table, you are in a different situation, especially if that career you have worked for all your life.

Looking back there are times when I personally could have someone come back and say I harassed them. Times in a club when I have been talking to a girl and have rested my hand on their bum. Luckily for me, they have always been a positive relationship develop out of them, however if they hadn't, then if I was famous, I could have people coming forward saying I harassed them.

What ever happened to a good old slap round the chops if you stepped out of line?

 

[terrym]

What seems trivial to you may not seem trivial to others, and I can guarantee you would remember an event you found traumatic, whether you wanted to or not.

Fallon's case may have been an inappropriate but relatively harmless touch of the knee, but most of the high profile cases raised recently have been much more serious.

I 100% agree with what you have said about what seems trivial to me may not seem trivial to others. And that is the case for everyone including yourself since you consider Fallon's action to be 'relatively harmless', whereas others may not view it that way.
All I am questioning is the motivation for raising these 'trivial' events years after they have occurred. Resting a hand on knee might now be classed as sexual assault in today's culture but wasn't probably viewed as such 30 years ago, so why raise it now? However, alleged rape from years back, which is and has been illegal for probably centuries (in the UK) clearly needs investigating, although proving it due to the passage of time is often difficult.

 

[Dexter101]

If it were me, I don't think I would ever feel that bad about someone touching my knee, Generationally I think we have moved away from many forms of human contact. A pat on the back is a well known phrase but if a man, patted a woman on the back at work, it could be sexual harassment.

Always feel slightly uncomfortable watching strictly, as the partners always have their hands on their shoulder, or round their waist etc. Now I know the couples work closely together and have a lot of contact during the dances but still....

 

[Thumper]

I 100% agree with what you have said about what seems trivial to me may not seem trivial to others. And that is the case for everyone including yourself since you consider Fallon's action to be 'relatively harmless', whereas others may not view it that way.

Absolutely. But I should make clear that I don't see it as trivial, merely relatively trivial.

All I am questioning is the motivation for raising these 'trivial' events years after they have occurred. Resting a hand on knee might now be classed as sexual assault in today's culture but wasn't probably viewed as such 30 years ago, so why raise it now? However, alleged rape from years back, which is and has been illegal for probably centuries (in the UK) clearly needs investigating, although proving it due to the passage of time is often difficult.

The fact society at large didn't view it as a problem doesn't mean the victim didn't. As I said earlier, that attitude was why they didn't raise it in the first place, and I suspect they raise it now precisely because they feel that these days they'll actually be taken seriously.

 

[Gunge]

I don't get it. A young lad and lass, getting to 'know each other' - who makes the first move,physically, without risking a lawsuit from the other? Should they come right out and ask, literally ask, if it's ok? That's what it's coming to. Bloody hell if all the girls I've known / approached decided it was wrong all those years ago, I'll be going down for a long, long time. I'm not making light of the matter - there's a world of difference between a friendly, innocent touch to assault. Where has all the common-sense gone, these days?

 

[Ajhutch]

I don't get it. A young lad and lass, getting to 'know each other' - who makes the first move,physically, without risking a lawsuit from the other? Should they come right out and ask, literally ask, if it's ok? That's what it's coming to. Bloody hell if all the girls I've known / approached decided it was wrong all those years ago, I'll be going down for a long, long time. I'm not making light of the matter - there's a world of difference between a friendly, innocent touch to assault. Where has all the common-sense gone, these days?

I think in the specific cases of MPs/actors/producers etc, the issue is that men (and it is predominantly men) could make unwelcome advances on other, much more junior people. They knew these advances were unwelcome but also knew the power they wielded in their industry and that the recipients of their attention therefore wouldn't 'rock the boat' by kicking up a fuss. So the issue is more about abuse of power with a sprinkling of male privilege that manifests itself in sexual harassment. I'm oversimplifying it but I think that's where it differs from a Joe Bloggs like you or me (apologies if you are actually a CEO, MP, Royal etc....)


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