Rice adjunct

MashBag said:

@JockyBrewer Love it. Not what I was thinking. Cook it & let it absorb all the water. Then add it to my overnight mash, where everything liquor and grain bill This means it will sit with the barley for 6 hours at 20c before the mash starts.

While typing this I am reminded of resistant starches. Causes by letting rice chill. Hmm. It will change.

If it needs to be added cooked, it needs to be Mashed immediately after cooking, while still hot.

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Before I first started playing with rice I read about some people that pre cooked their rice the day before and then add it to strike water so the next day their strike water is a big starchy soup, so I think it does work. I couldn't really do that as it would burn on the element in my HLT/Kettle.

Give it a go and see - you will learn something.

The-Engineer-That-Brews said:

Yes be very careful with cooked rice as it can contain fungal spores that are not destroyed by boiling. If the cooked rice is allowed to cool down to the temperature where they have time to grow it can make you extremely unwell…

https://www.nhs.uk/common-health-questions/food-and-diet/can-reheating-rice-cause-food-poisoning/

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Wee bit of pedantry - they’re bacterial spores not fungal … Bacillus cereus Or as it is known B ‘serious’ … and yes it is v serious.

DocAnna said:

Wee bit of pedantry - they’re bacterial spores not fungal … Bacillus cereus Or as it is known B ‘serious’ … and yes it is v serious.

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Thanks! Makes sense: I had no idea bacteria could form spores. I just remember a friend who was an environmental health officer saying most of the time you might get away with reheating rice that's been at room temp for a while, but if it goes wrong then it goes REALLY wrong

Raw corn will gelatinize around 164o (73 C), raw rice at 170o (76 C), while raw barley and raw wheat will gelatinize between 126o and 147o. Raw barley and raw wheat can go into the mash as-crushed while the corn and rice would require cooking. Differences exist among starches because various plants have a different ratio of amylose (straight-chained starch) to amylopectin (branched starch).

An easy way to do it on a small scale is treating it as an oven cooked rice dish. After grinding your rice or corn (or simply using corn grits), bring a sufficient amount of water to a boil. Turn off the heat and stir in your raw cereal. Cover the pot and place in a 350o (176 C) oven for about 30 minutes. When the timer goes off, your cereal is cooked. Instead of a 2:1 measure of water to grist, you might use a 3:1 ratio or even more. When cooked, it should have the consistency of porridge. Keep in mind that you don’t salt the water or worry about the grist coming out al dente, sticky, or any other similar concern. You are preparing the grain for the mash, not as a meal for the family table. Once cooked, you simply add it to your mash but watch the temp; don’t overshoot the main mash temperature with this infusion.

At this point you can continue with an overnight mash if desired.

The-Engineer-That-Brews said:

Yes be very careful with cooked rice as it can contain fungal spores that are not destroyed by boiling. If the cooked rice is allowed to cool down to the temperature where they have time to grow it can make you extremely unwell…

https://www.nhs.uk/common-health-questions/food-and-diet/can-reheating-rice-cause-food-poisoning/

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I think that is where the story that MSG is bad for you came from. People used to eat left over Chinese takeaways the next day and thought it was the MSG that was making them ill.

A bit like someone I knew that insisted that their hangovers where caused by bad tonic water in their gin

The-Engineer-That-Brews said:

Thanks! Makes sense: I had no idea bacteria could form spores.

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I think under the right circumstances most bacteria can behave like fungus and vice versa.

Slime molds push it further - spores hatch out into bacteria/amoeba who go about their business for a while. Then something triggers them to group together into a kind of slimy worm and they slither to somewhere they like. They then develop a fungal fruiting body which releases spores and it starts again.

Twostage said:

I think that is where the story that MSG is bad for you came from. People used to eat left over Chinese takeaways the next day and thought it was the MSG that was making them ill.

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**** 80's sweet and sour used to give me headaches as a kid.

crescent city Mike said:

After grinding your rice

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You really don't need to grind rice. Plus it's not easy to grind anyway.

crescent city Mike said:

Instead of a 2:1 measure of water to grist, you might use a 3:1 ratio or even more. When cooked, it should have the consistency of porridge.

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More is definitely better. The more you cook it, the more water it will absorb, and the easier it will break up, removing the need for any milling.

This is what 1.5kg of rice cooked for 30 minutes in about 8 litres of water (so more than 4:1) looks like:




And here's the solid blob it formed sitting warm for another 90 minutes!

Twostage said:

I think under the right circumstances most bacteria can behave like fungus and vice versa.

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<sharp intake of breath>
No. Well not really, it's a bit like saying that birds sometime behave like fish because of penguins and flying fish.
[speaking as a one-time microbiologist]

But Bacillus cereus is a fun example of how you can "up-rate" a modestly pathogenic bacteria by giving it "weapons" in the form of loops of DNA, one of which turns it into Bacillus anthracis (as in anthrax, which of course is famous for forming spores) and another of which turns it into Bacillus thuringiensis, which is equally lethal to insects and as such is popular in organic farming.

Of perhaps more brewing interest, there's another member of the species group that was initially called Bacillus weihenstephanensis before being found to be the same as an existing member of the group, which was first identified in milk at Weihenstephan.

Northern_Brewer said:

<sharp intake of breath>
No. Well not really, it's a bit like saying that birds sometime behave like fish because of penguins and flying fish.
[speaking as a one-time microbiologist]

But Bacillus cereus is a fun example of how you can "up-rate" a modestly pathogenic bacteria by giving it "weapons" in the form of loops of DNA, one of which turns it into Bacillus anthracis (as in anthrax, which of course is famous for forming spores) and another of which turns it into Bacillus thuringiensis, which is equally lethal to insects and as such is popular in organic farming.

Of perhaps more brewing interest, there's another member of the species group that was initially called Bacillus weihenstephanensis before being found to be the same as an existing member of the group, which was first identified in milk at Weihenstephan.

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Evidently it’s ruddy complicated stuff, this microbiology!

The-Engineer-That-Brews said:

Evidently it’s ruddy complicated stuff, this microbiology!

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I am learning loads and keeping my mouth shout. Who know birds were really fish.

MashBag said:

I am learning loads and keeping my mouth shout. Who know birds were really fish.

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To muddy the waters a bit more there is really no such thing as a fish…

Back to the OP can’t you just make a really big batch of curry instead?

Northern_Brewer said:

<sharp intake of breath>
No. Well not really, it's a bit like saying that birds sometime behave like fish because of penguins and flying fish.
[speaking as a one-time microbiologist]

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Not what I'm saying .

Its not behaviour, its biological transformation.

Wish I could remember which book it was in (it was a long time ago in my University days). It basically said that bacteria could (under the right circumstances) group together to become multi-cellular organisms and vice versa. It ended with the notion that it was possible that they all could do it but it would be a matter of determining what the right circumstances were for each one.

Quick google gives this from science.org :-

For example, microbes called cyanobacteria form complex chains of cells. And under stress, single-cell Myxococcus bacteria come together to form a mobile, stalked fruiting body, allowing them to move in search of better conditions.

Caramel Ox said:

Back to the OP can’t you just make a really big batch of curry instead?

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Bathtub Biryani. That's what I do when I've a spare 25kg of Basmati knocking around.

Now I want to make a biryani.

Twostage said:

Not what I'm saying .

Its not behaviour, its biological transformation.

Wish I could remember which book it was in (it was a long time ago in my University days). It basically said that bacteria could (under the right circumstances) group together to become multi-cellular organisms and vice versa. It ended with the notion that it was possible that they all could do it but it would be a matter of determining what the right circumstances were for each one.

Quick google gives this from science.org :-

For example, microbes called cyanobacteria form complex chains of cells. And under stress, single-cell Myxococcus bacteria come together to form a mobile, stalked fruiting body, allowing them to move in search of better conditions.

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You introduced the word "behave" - and it was the "most" I was really objecting to, cherry-picking the odd rare example that forms a fruiting body is not the same.

Twostage said:

I think under the right circumstances most bacteria can behave like fungus and vice versa.

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Also this aggregation behaviour is typical of slime moulds - which are not fungi (or at least most if not all of them are not fungi, I don't follow the taxonomy closely). They're a mixed bunch - some are related to plants, some are cousins of fungi, but the most common/famous slime moulds are the Myxogastria, which are derived from the amoeba family.

But bacteria are so different from eukaryotes that I wouldn't draw too close comparisons as the biochemical mechanisms are almost certainly independently evolved, in the same way that bats represent a separate evolution of flying to birds.