A myriad of random questions

[-Bezza-]

Hoping it's not bad form, but I have a few random questions connected with getting back in to the home brew that I was looking for some help on. I've been loitering around on the forums and reading up as much as I can over the past week or so, but can't find conclusive answers on a few points. I've tried to keep the points brief but happy to elaborate if needed.

1) I have the Young's APA kit which has a best before date of February 2018. I'm assuming it would be a good idea to get some fresh yeast for this - would Mangrove Jack's US West Coast Yeasts M44 be suitable? Should I add some extra hop pellets too?

2) I also found a very out-of-date Coopers Lager can (best before sometime in 2012). If I added some newer lager yeast and beer enhancer, will it still be useable or should I just stop being a tight-**** and bin it?

3) I made the mistake of buying some Ikea flip-top bottles. If I were to get something that warranted a slightly lower fizz, I assume they'd still be useable without too much risk of blowing. Any thoughts on how much sugar they could reasonably take?

4) In terms of saving bottles from other beers, does anyone have a list of acceptable weights according to bottle size that will hold a decent level of carbonation?

5) I want to try my hand at some malt extract brewing before moving on to all grain. Overall, would getting a large stock pan be most appropriate for malt extract or is there some other form of boiler I should look at, on the basis that although it might cost more, I can then make more use of it when moving to all grain? I have a fairly decent looking gas burner on the kitchen stove, probably 5kw, if that matters.

6) Being unfussy about beer style, any suggestions on recipes from Greg Hughes' Home Brew Beer book that would be a 'safe' intro into malt extract? Or are they all as easy/difficult as each other?

7) I had my heart set on a Grainfather but then saw that it costs about twice as much as an all grain kit (e.g. this, which itself is probably overkill: https://www.the-home-brew-shop.co.uk/acatalog/Super-Deluxe-Basic-Equipment-Kit.html). Does the Grainfather make all grain brewing easier or more successful or are you paying for it being shiny metal and all-in-one?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Bigcol49]

Hi!
Welcome to the forum.
It's not bad form to ask questions.
1. Ditch the kit yeast. M44 seems to have a long lag time, but should be great for your kit.
Hop pellets - up to you. Fermentation will strip out a lot of hop flavour, so try a hop tea when bottling.
2. Be tight arsed and USE IT! Don't expect an award-winning beer, but it's worth a shot.
3. I have no experience of IKEA flip-tops. Try a couple of bottles with your APA and see what happens - if they blow you're only losing a little.
4. All beer bottles have to be able to hold much more pressure than they'll get carbonating beer. I use old beer bottles without any problems. Buy a bench capper, though - there are reports of hand cappers shattering pre-used beer bottles.
5. Get the biggest pot you can afford.
6. Take your pick!
7. Look at alternatives to the Grainfather - ACE, Klarstein etc. They may not have a wort chiller but, in all other respects, they do the same job and come in at roughly the same price as the kit you linked to. That's a decent kit, however and will serve you well.

 

[terrym]

1. Changing the kit yeast is optional, under normal circumstances it works fine imo. The only reason for changing in my view would be the age of the yeast in your case. You could try Crossmyloof's US Pale Ale Yeast. Adding extra hops is a personal choice, it already comes with 60g for the dry hop. I have this kit on the go at present and have no intention of adding extra hops. Look at the review for more
http://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=53846
2. Use it. Do it with Crossmyloofs's Kolsch yeast.
3. If a bottle is not designed to hold pressure don't use it for carbonated beer.
4. My take would be any bottle that has previously held beer should be OK. That said most beer bottles are designed as one trip so they have their limitations on re-use. Others might disagree.
5. You don't need to boil all of the wort for extract brewing. Only enough for the hop boil. And you dont have to make 23 litres at a time, go smaller volumes to suit what you have, prorating the ingredients. I make 15/16 litre extract brews with a 3.5 litre and a 5 litre pot. Save the big pot size until you go AG would be my view unless you have no stock pot whatsoever.
6. As Bigcol says, take your pick. Graham Wheelers 'Brew your own British Real Ale' book also has a lot of extract recipes. And don't buy cheap LME to do your extract brew if you go that way. Mine done with cheap LME had 'the twang'.

 

[Poochops]

Hi and welcome
1. I'd be changing the yeast if it's ood next month, I'd go for CML American ale yeast and you could if you wanted get some extra hops while you're ordering, they do as little as 25grams and no extra postage. Yeast is peanuts prices too.
2. Ditch it you tight ****! It's 5 years past it's best, go and buy another.
3. Wouldn't risk it personally but if you do then 3grams per 500ml in a bitter would be a low volume of co2. Your apa will be under carbed with this amount though.
4. If it's had beer in it'll be fine unless it's got any knocks or chips.
5. Get a 33l pot so you can use it as a HLT when you buy a grainfather.
6. Whatever you fancy! I'd use DME personally. Used LME in the past and it's not as good IMO.
7. Other all in one systems are available and will do the same job. With a gf you get a brilliant chiller, great conveniently positioned controller, first class aftercare, Bluetooth control, website recipe builder and a big shiny pot. You pays your money, takes your choice.

 

[Simonh82]

I've used the ikea flip top bottles (1L) to bottle elderflower champagne. That was quite highly carbonated, probably about 3-3.5 volumes of CO2. They've given me no problems, although your milage may vary.

If you are thinking about all grain a big stock pot could work but for full 21-23L batches you will need a 30 to 35L pot. Can you sustain a rolling boil with 27L of wort on your stove?

A 30L Burco boiler is great although a bit tight for space for full volume batches. 40L buffalo boilers are a better size but you will almost definitely need to tinker with the thermostat to avoid it cutting out at 98°C.

Grainfathers are great but pricy. Other options are the Ace microbrewery or the same product relabelled as something like Karlstein microbrewery. Lots of review threads in the equipment forum.

Even with these all in one systems you still need a way to heat 15L of water for sparging, so a big stock pot or boiler is still a good investment.

 

[Simonh82]

Also, I'd avoid the old coopers kit. See this article for why.

 

[Saisonator]

I would keep the old kit for starters in the future, then again even if it were 2 months old I would still just keep it for starters in the future :whistle:

 

[Davemc]

Welcome back to home brewing, I had a long lay off before coming back to it, I had a wherry kit that was out of date, like your Coopers, I brewed it, it was awful, so I wouldn't waste time brewing it.

I have never used the flip top bottles but as others say they should be fine. I kept a lot of bottles from comercial beers and re-use them and have had no problems with any of them.

I would suggest getting a burco boiler or similar, if you evetually go down the route of all grain it will be useful even if you get a system like the grainfather you need a way to heat sparge water. After looking at the Grainfather and deciding it was out of my price bracket I got an Ace micorbrwery and am very happy with it, it will work out cheaper than the all grain kit you linked and takes up less space. that said there is now a 50L version that is a little more expensive.

As for the yeast I would get some fresher I would go with the other suggestions, you may not need more hops but a good way to do it is have one of these hop tea bags, you can dry hop if you feel it needs more hops or make a hop tea. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10-25g-Home-Brew-Hop-Pellet-Tea-Bags-62-TYPES-eg-Citra-Fuggles-Saaz-Cascade-etc/282635396996?var=581830221582&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D49130%26meid%3D95dbdc539a944f39a920b9d6bb277c6b%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D262321992845&_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850

Good luck

 

[ExpatBrewer]

Also, I'd avoid the old coopers kit. See this article for why.

Well, maybe not?

Selecting a preference was difficult because it sort of depends on the context. As a lager, the fresh LME was more inline with my expectations, but the old LME beer was actually nice too, it just had a stronger malt characteristic more reminiscent of a Scottish Ale.

Though to be fair, their 'old' extract was only one year past it, not five or six!


Personally I'd be inclined to take a punt, pair it up with some fresh extract, hop it up a bit and could well get a drinkable brew out of it. It sure won't a be a prize winner but it might be an OK swill.

 

[GerritT]

Howdy!

Old Coopers can: I'd use it, just for the hell of it. Too curious.
Fliptops: use it for lowcarbon drinks. If things go wrong, they won't go wrong much. The fliptop sometimes works as a valve, quite interesting.
Pot: depends partly on the size of the brew. You have 5kW at your service, I have a 2.7kW that manages 20L quite nicely. It comes a bit down to budget, space etc.

 

[-Bezza-]

Well thanks kindly to everyone who's offered up a response. Really appreciate the help.

I live about 20 mins away from The Homebrew Shop (www.the-home-brew-shop.co.uk) so all stuff will come from there if possible. That seems to rule out some of the suggestions on the yeast unfortunately.

So where I'm up to:

1) I'll get some new yeast and assume the hops are still "fresh" enough for the dry hop.

2) I'm in two minds about this old kit. The longer story is that my brother was given a homebrew setup for Christmas many years ago and never got round to doing it so has just given me everything. I'm generally not a lager fan so was going to brew the kit up with him to show him how easy it is (and convince him he should do it more often). Perhaps I'll buy something new for him to try and just give the old kit a bash separately when I'm done on the good stuff. Who knows, perhaps vintage lager will be a thing.

3) I'll do a couple of bottles of each of the next few brews and see how they perform. If they hold up, I'll use them for flatter styles.

4) The answer here seems clear - keep all old bottles and get a bench capper.

5) I only have a 5l stock pot at the moment so will need to get something larger. Not sure how the gas hob in the kitchen will perform but always seemed to have good gas pressure - it is a concern though as wouldn't want to buy a pan and find I can't really get enough of a boil on. I'm still not completely clear on the suggestion to get a Burco Boiler. Would I steep and boil directly in there or would that just be to bring the water up to temperature and do the real work in another pan? What about something like this as a one-pot-wonder for the time being? https://www.the-home-brew-shop.co.u...er-with-Tap-Hop-Strainer-and-Thermometer.html

6) Nothing in particular to say. I'll give it a go but probably use DME on the basis that's what the recipes ask for.

7) One for the future but I'm getting the sense that the all-in-one solutions are a bit more polished and easier to control/program than component kits. I'm reading that the Grainfather is probably better in quality compared to some of the ACE etc.

I also thought of some other questions!

8) Is adding a campden tablet to the water as a matter of course good for kits? I'd read that the dechlorination improves things. My water is semi-hard.

9) The all grain recipes call for protofloc to be added. Is this needed for the malt extract version where steeping grain?

10) What's the best process for getting into bottles? I'm thinking - finish fermentation and chill down, transfer to PB and add priming sugar, settle for a day or two in the cold, transfer to bottles, move somewhere warm for a couple of days then transfer to the cold again to condition.

 

[-Bezza-]

Howdy!

Old Coopers can: I'd use it, just for the hell of it. Too curious.

In the interests of science, I'll do it. Will post my findings back on here!

Pot: depends partly on the size of the brew. You have 5kW at your service, I have a 2.7kW that manages 20L quite nicely. It comes a bit down to budget, space etc.

Space isn't a concern. Budget only a concern in that I don't want to waste money or spend it on snake oil. I don't mind spending £100 on a pot if I'm going to get a lot of use out of it over the years and/or can use it for other things.

 

[chewie]

In the interests of science, I'll do it. Will post my findings back on here!



Space isn't a concern. Budget only a concern in that I don't want to waste money or spend it on snake oil. I don't mind spending ��£100 on a pot if I'm going to get a lot of use out of it over the years and/or can use it for other things.

I went from BIAB using a peco to a GF, the biggest advantage with an all in one is space saving, everything is contained and this makes cleaning it a lot easier, a simple wipe down after it has been emptied and then tip in saved CF chiller hot water and cleaner and let it do its cleaning whilst you go do other things.

My peco however is still used alongside the GF to heat the sparge water, any pot of 20l + size or so will always be useful for this so don't fret about it sitting idle if you go down the all in one route later.

 

[Bigcol49]

8) Is adding a campden tablet to the water as a matter of course good for kits? I'd read that the dechlorination improves things. My water is semi-hard..

Hi!
Adding half of a Campden tablet to 23 litres of water will get rid of the chloramines. It's more or less standard practice.

 

[terrym]

I also thought of some other questions!

8) Is adding a campden tablet to the water as a matter of course good for kits? I'd read that the dechlorination improves things. My water is semi-hard.

9) The all grain recipes call for protofloc to be added. Is this needed for the malt extract version where steeping grain?

10) What's the best process for getting into bottles? I'm thinking - finish fermentation and chill down, transfer to PB and add priming sugar, settle for a day or two in the cold, transfer to bottles, move somewhere warm for a couple of days then transfer to the cold again to condition.

8) If your tap water is good enough to drink without a second thought then its good enough for a kit. Campden tablets are only useful if your water has a high dosage rate of chloramines (or so they they tell us) in that it breaks it down so as to be undetectable. My tap water is OK, and although I previously used Campden tablets I dont bother any more since it made no detectable difference. If you are uncertain the only way of finding out is to try it for yourself.
9) I use a protofloc tablet for my extract brews, but not when I boost a kit with steeping grains. If you are undecided why not give it a go they are cheap enough.
10) I go for simple. Chill down after a good long allowance for primary to finish and the yeast to clean up (so its usually 16 days or more). Then I siphon direct into PB or bottles. I dose the PB or each bottle with priming sugar as I go. If you decide to use a bottling bucket you should not leave priming sugar in your beer for longer than an hour or two I would say since the yeast will start to work again and you will lose that CO2 to outside rather than keep it in the PB or your bottles. And after you have packaged you will need to leave the PB/bottles in a warm place for at least one week, two is better to carb up. Two days is not enough, unless it's summer and you don't refrigerate your beer in storage.

 

[terrym]

Also, I'd avoid the old coopers kit. See this article for why.

And the results from the side by side test are in (as below as copied from the article)
"The 23 participants who made the accurate selection on the triangle test were instructed to complete a brief preference survey comparing only the 2 beers that were different. A total of 11 reported preferring the fresh LME beer, 9 liked the old LME beer more, and 3 reported having no preference despite noticing a difference."
And as an observation from the author
"As a lager, the fresh LME was more inline with my expectations, but the old LME beer was actually nice too, it just had a stronger malt characteristic more reminiscent of a Scottish Ale."
Draw your own conclusions :hmm:

 

[Simonh82]

And the results from the side by side test are in (as below as copied from the article)
"The 23 participants who made the accurate selection on the triangle test were instructed to complete a brief preference survey comparing only the 2 beers that were different. A total of 11 reported preferring the fresh LME beer, 9 liked the old LME beer more, and 3 reported having no preference despite noticing a difference."
And as an observation from the author
"As a lager, the fresh LME was more inline with my expectations, but the old LME beer was actually nice too, it just had a stronger malt characteristic more reminiscent of a Scottish Ale."
Draw your own conclusions :hmm:

Well, their 1 year old LME lager tasted more like a scottish ale, so if it's a lager that the OP is after then I wouldn't bother. Personally, I'd never consider using 5 year old LME if I wanted something actually palatable.

 

[-Bezza-]

Well, their 1 year old LME lager tasted more like a scottish ale, so if it's a lager that the OP is after then I wouldn't bother. Personally, I'd never consider using 5 year old LME if I wanted something actually palatable.

I'm going to give it a bash with the expectation of it tasting rubbish. Could be a bit of fun. If the contents of the can are solid or green, I might have to give it a rethink! :thumb:

 

[Oneflewover]

Hi Bezza. I've used the homebrew shop lots, and found them very good to deal with.

They have a very good price on the bulldog brewer, and this may be an all in one option to consider. I have one and am very happy with it.

I did have a problem with the pump, but the homebrew shop replaced without quibble (I subsequently got the other one working, so have 2, but don't tell them!)

 

[Saisonator]

The Home Brew Shop is my nearest, it's a very clean, tidy and well stocked shop. I never knew that many beer kits existed!
Their prices are competitive and the malt's grain crush works well with the Grainfather.
If they did custom AG kits then I would get all my supplies there.