Boiling liquor to precipitate chalk

[Jim Brewster]

I'm still learning the water side of brewing... I'm doing a pale ale with Anglian water, the hardest water I've come across - from the water report the hardness is something like 300ppm as carbonate. Very high - the limescale left on everything the water touches confirms this to be the case.

I've already got bottled water to dilute (3 bottled :1 tap) to reduce the residual alkalinity for the mash as my usual process (plus some Citric acid), however I was wondering if I could boil the mash liquor first and then allow to cool overnight and then resume in the morning to get it back to strike temperature.

Is this feasible and how much of the carbonate will this remove approximately (I assume it won't be all of it, more like 75%)? I can add Gypsum back in to bring up the calcium if necessary. Do I need to decant it off the sediment to remove the chalk or can I just leave it for the mash if it's not in solution?

The figures for the local tap water I looked up online are:
Calcium177, Sulphate22, Chloride58, Sodium25, Magnesium2.4, Hardness as carbonate 300, pH7.65

 

[Sadfield]

https://www.brunwater.com/articles/pre-boiling-water-treatment

 

[Jim Brewster]

https://www.brunwater.com/articles/pre-boiling-water-treatment

Thanks! So I boil for 10 minutes and then decant off the sediment once it settles. Perfect.

They reckon an approximate maximum remaining bicarbonate of 80ppm so that's close to my dilution with bottled water to 75ppm, and then I'll treat the rest with Citric acid. Something to try out in future or when I'm out of bottled water.

Using the formula in the article I get a final calcium level that's also not too bad:
Ca(end) = Ca(start) - [HCO3(start) - HCO3(end)]/3.05
Ca(end) = 177 - (300-80)/3.05 = 105ppm

 

[Braumeister]

That water sounds very much like mine, limescale on everything it touches. No foam when you use starsan or anything like that. I’ve thought about pre-boiling like that but I don’t have a vessel to boil that much water in separate to the one I use so I just chuck in CRS/AMS, does the same job. Although it does increase the sulphate quite a bit which seems to work out well.

 

[Jim Brewster]

I've been pre boiling my water for 10 minutes lately and it does precipitate a lot of chalk. However the brews that I've made using this method have not tasted quite right, so I've come to the conclusion that it's either not effective enough or the other minerals are too high. Will go back to diluting with bottled water 3:1 from now on

 

[peebee]

Water, Water Everywhere

The bit on "Bicarbonate (Alkalinity)" is what you want (Bicarbonate and Alkalinity is the same subject when dealing with UK drinking water; there's no practical benefit in delving deeper into Alkalinity - I know, 'cos I've been there!).

They are good in not mentioning their AMS product (not quite that is) so: AMS - LIQUOR TREATMENT

 

[scrap iron]

Another method of reducing alkalinity in the brewing industry is the use of slaked lime. A large city near me uses this method to soften drinking water. This method uses no boiling water only lime such is used in canning.
https://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Alkalinity_reduction_with_slaked_lime

 

[peebee]

Another method of reducing alkalinity in the brewing industry is the use of slaked lime. A large city near me uses this method to soften drinking water. This method uses no boiling water only lime such is used in canning.
https://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Alkalinity_reduction_with_slaked_lime

I see you are in Kansas, USA? This is why I was careful to mention in my post "... when dealing with UK drinking water, ...". I'm quite sure there isn't a water authority anywhere in the UK where adding lime to the water they provide would reduce alkalinity. It will increase alkalinity! (And if that isn't confusing enough, "lime" isn't a bicarbonate and I said earlier "Bicarbonate and Alkalinity is the same subject").

Making simple subjects diabolically complicated is easy. Do we need it? Those in the UK don't need to trouble themselves with these "oddities". It only helps confirm what might appear to be a mysterious subject, is a mysterious subject! I'm in danger of labouring a statement, but: "I know, 'cos I've been there!".

 

[scrap iron]

"Lime softening was first used in 1841 to treat Thames River water. The process expanded in use as the other benefits of the process was discovered. Lime softening greatly expanded in use during the early 1900s as industrial water use expanded. Lime softening provides soft water that can, in some cases, be used more effectively for heat transfer and various other industrial uses."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lime_softeningIt's true that lime raises ph in small amounts. This method adds enough to raise ph to a point where
"pH is raised and the equilibrium of carbonate species in the water is shifted. Dissolved carbon dioxide (CO2) is changed into bicarbonate (HCO−
and then carbonate (CO2-
This action causes calcium carbonate to precipitate due to exceeding the solubility product. Additionally, magnesium can be precipitated as magnesium hydroxide in a double displacement reaction."
Yes, lime is not a bicarbonate but used in the right amount causes it to precipitate out [drop out of solution]
This is not an oddity, but a way used by water companies and breweries worldwide. It's chemistry. I have used this method in a home I lived in that had very hard well water. I was merely trying to provide an alternative to boiling water. Advanced brewers are aware of the method. The US Midwest has hard water with high alkalinity. Also, I worked for a large water department for over twenty years. Use the method or not, no worries and no hard feelings but at least read about it before dismissing it.
cheers

 

[peebee]

You missed my point. But in describing how "lime softening" works, you reinforce my point!

In the UK no-one has private deep-bore supplies. If any do, they'll know exactly how to deal with it. Some surface water private supplies may run through shallow limestone but won't have the opportunity to pick much up.

As homebrewers in the UK we simply do not need the knowledge of how to "lime soften" as we won't have the opportunity to apply it. I wish that many years ago that was pointed out to me, so I didn't need to waste the time and brain capacity in an attempt to understand it, and the in-between time to un-necessarily worry about it. UK tap waters simply don't have the right parameters to make "lime softening" a valid option. So why bother to consider it?



If there's anyone in the UK with a private water supply with extremely high carbonate/bicarbonate content who still wants to try "lime softening, see if that Murphy and Son article I posted above puts you off first (if I've failed).

 

[scrap iron]

I was going off the OPs tap water report that seems to be temporary hardness with a very high carbonate figure. The welI I mentioned had harder water than the water dept I referred to. The city water dept uses surface water high in alkalinity and has a lime treatment to soften it. I myself have settled on and just using RO water to make things simpler adding back brewing salts to up the calcium. If it was me, I would just use RO water or bottled water with low deposits. Or cut the tap water with RO water at about a 50 to 50 rate and not go to all the trouble.
I confess that my suggestion might be too advanced for some and not apply to some waters.
I do know that German brewers can use the method and others to treat their water and it is complaint with the Reinheitsgebot purity laws. Prost

 

[peebee]

Excellent! This argument is resolving itself ...

... The city water dept uses surface water high in alkalinity and has a lime treatment to soften it. ....

I don't know if lime is used in such a way in the UK, but if it is, then we in the UK don't need to consider it, it's done for us (I've always said if using UK "tap", or "drinking", water). There may well be places in the USA that have "surface" water that travels considerable distances picking up very high amounts of carbonate hardness, but the UK is a bit small compared to the USA! "Nowhere in the UK is more than 113 kilometres (70 mi) from the coast." (Wikipedia); the Thames and Severn do cover just over 200 miles () passing through limestone country in patches along the way.

In the UK we (homebrewers) can get along fine without ever understanding the complexities of "Lime softening". Boiling to reduce bicarbonate hardness is a bit expensive (financially and environmentally), as is "RO" treatment, but in the UK we do have "AMS" (I use Phosphoric Acid but have only tiny amounts of bicarbonate hardness to correct).

A piccie I've posted before ('cos I like pretty piccies):

This map may be Total Hardness (as Calcium) rather than only Carbonate (Temporary) Hardness? Note how Birmingham is picked out - it nicks its water from Wales.