Disappointing brew-where am I going wrong?

[Hengoedbrewer]

Hi guys

I am after some general thoughts as to why I might not be getting good brewing results if possible.

After somewhere in the region of 10 kit brews; some "straight" and some modified; I have just done my second extract; a BrewUK vanilla porter. The first was a Way To Amarillo which I am discounting more or less as a leak left quite a lot of it on my kitchen floor and totally flat bottles. I had high hopes of the porter and nothing went wrong on brewday, far as I could see, but, I am really quite disappointed with it- most of it is in Coopers PET bottles and some in glass- The PET bottles taste and smell quite yeasty and have very little head, and the first out of the fridge was very "plastic-y". The glass bottles seem better- a lasting head and good lacing but still not a massive amount of flavour, certainly no vanilla and not really the strong flavours I expect from a porter, and an apparently very good recipe pack at that. It was weird as out of the FV the porter was okay- good aroma of vanilla- but the bottles have none!

I am just beginning to worry as although the hobby is great, I am yet to have a batch of a finished product which I have thought was really, really good, and am therefore considering if I keep trying or give up, or wondering if I am just going wrong somewhere? For the porter I thought I had all the bases covered- I got a decent LCD thermometer to check steeping temps properly, it was brewed using an Inkbird 308S for proper temp control with an aquarium heater and water bath and brewed pretty much constantly at about 19.5; I even used a new FV. I am wondering whether maybe I should start changing some variables- for eg using a different steriliser, at the moment I use Milton tablets, or trying a pressure barrel not bottles....?

Some details on brewing methods if it helps;

1. I always ferment for minimum 2 weeks in 1 FV and don't bother with racking to secondary; and I batch prime with normal table sugar (porter for eg was 95g for 18L batch);
2. I always brew in the cupboard under the stairs using a water bath, and as I say I now have an inkbird for fermentation temp control;
3. I clean FV's with Oxy clean and sterilise with Milton tabs; and same for bottles (though bottles I rinse straight after drinking so unless they are really mucky I just sterilise them rather than clean again);
4. For the porter I put the bottles in the trug after brewing with the inkbird set at 20 to carbonate them- I also put the ones that wouldn't fit in there in the airing cupboard where the boiler is, and up to the attic to cold condition- it was bottled on the 27th November and I had my first bottle last Saturday.

Any help or suggestions would be massively appreciated- I don't want to give up but I am at a bit of a loss to why I keep getting disappointing results, and as extract is an expensive way to brew I don't want to keep throwing money away

 

[chub1]

I use plenty of PET bottles and have not noticed any plastic tastes from them!
Have done a fair few extract recipies,all 5/10 litre brews and all punched through recipie builder on here, none were kits.I use/have used both spraymalt and H and B liquid malt,straight and mixed.
Obviously some have been better than others but not really had anything that i could say was yuk! and some have been really good beers,as good as some of my AG attempts.
What i have found with coffee stouts is that the coffee does seem to get assimilated into the beer and becomes less and less of a hit over time.
My usual batch size is 5 litres so if anything did go t##s up wouldn't be a big deal to lob it!
Can't speak for sanitisers other than Wilko's,not the cheapest by a long way but never had a problem with it so will stick to it.

 

[Leon103]

I would try and use glass bottles, unlike others I haven't had a good beer from a plastic bottle.

What flavours were you expecting from the porter and what have you got. I have done a vanilla porter. The recipe called for 2 vanilla sticks, I used 4, still no flavour. I think next time I will use flavouring. How much vanilla did you use? How long have you let it condition for?

 

[Hengoedbrewer]

I would try and use glass bottles, unlike others I haven't had a good beer from a plastic bottle.

What flavours were you expecting from the porter and what have you got. I have done a vanilla porter. The recipe called for 2 vanilla sticks, I used 4, still no flavour. I think next time I will use flavouring. How much vanilla did you use? How long have you let it condition for?

Hiya

There is a LITTLE bit of dark flavour- from the grains provided- but not the deep roasty / coffee I would expect from a porter having drunk a lot of them over the years. I used the two vanilla pods provided in the kit- which I cut open, scraped, and soaked in vanilla vodka prior to adding to the FV- and one further one which may have been a bit old and dry if I am honest- as you say I get no vanilla though the aroma and flavour WAS there when syphoning to bottles. It has been in the bottle since 27th November- so it will be 9 weeks bottled tomorrow.

 

[Ale]

There are a lot of variables you havent mentioned. What water did you use? When I started brewing I used untreated tap water and always had a medicinal taste. I'm planning on going AG soon but will be experimenting with water before I do. If you havent read the guide on water on here its worth a read here:
http://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=64822

And I'll add to that what yeast and hops are you using? Everything can affect flavour. Also you have given it a good time to condition. The longer you leave it some flavours will mature and others will dissipate. Vanilla may be one of the later. Atm I tend to do 2 weeks in the FV, 2 carbonating and 2 cold crashing. I only have one FV atm and will be buying more soon at which point I may add some time in a secondary. I dont drink a lot though so dont need to brew very often.

 

[Hengoedbrewer]

There are a lot of variables you havent mentioned. What water did you use? When I started brewing I used untreated tap water and always had a medicinal taste. I'm planning on going AG soon but will be experimenting with water before I do. If you havent read the guide on water on here its worth a read here:
http://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=64822

And I'll add to that what yeast and hops are you using? Everything can affect flavour. Also you have given it a good time to condition. The longer you leave it some flavours will mature and others will dissipate. Vanilla may be one of the later. Atm I tend to do 2 weeks in the FV, 2 carbonating and 2 cold crashing. I only have one FV atm and will be buying more soon at which point I may add some time in a secondary. I dont drink a lot though so dont need to brew very often.

Hi

Thanks for reply; I knew I should have mentioned water- I always only use Morrison's bottled now. As regards hops- it was the ones supplied in the kit- which were Wilamette; Willamette; and Challenger at 60, 5, 0. The ONLY thing I did which was out of the ordinary- and is a recommendation I have seen here on the forum anyway- was to boil the hops in water without the malt extract until the end of the boil- otherwise I followed the instructions to the latter. Yeast, again, was the supplied- which I am pretty sure was Safale 04.

 

[braziliain]

Did I understand correctly that you are bottling from the primary FV, but you are also batch priming?

How are you mixing in the sugar solution without disturbing the trub?

I might have read that wrong but if I batch prime I always rack it off to a bottling bucket. If bottling out of the primary I prime individual bottles.

I would also add that the one time I have used PET bottles, I was disappointed with the beer. It was my very first brew though so put it down to my inexperience. Using exclusively glass now.

 

[Hengoedbrewer]

Did I understand correctly that you are bottling from the primary FV, but you are also batch priming?

How are you mixing in the sugar solution without disturbing the trub?

I might have read that wrong but if I batch prime I always rack it off to a bottling bucket. If bottling out of the primary I prime individual bottles.

I would also add that the one time I have used PET bottles, I was disappointed with the beer. It was my very first brew though so put it down to my inexperience. Using exclusively glass now.

Hi

My poor explanation there sorry!- I do indeed use a secondary (bottling) bucket to batch prime. Rack beer in on top of priming solution (in this case 95g of white sugar) allowed to cool. I don't rack my beer off to a second bucket to get it off the trub before bottling though which I understand some people do.

 

[DoctorMick]

I've done the ag version of the porter kit and there was no vanilla flavour or aroma to it, 3 pods definitely isn't enough. I had the same experience where the smell was definitely there when bottling but not when drinking.

 

[Hengoedbrewer]

I've done the ag version of the porter kit and there was no vanilla flavour or aroma to it, 3 pods definitely isn't enough. I had the same experience where the smell was definitely there when bottling but not when drinking.

Thank you- I know it's a bit like comparing apples and oranges extract and all grain but even if it's not vanilla-y I would have hoped for more general porter tastes, but glad it's not just me!

 

[Leon103]

Hiya

There is a LITTLE bit of dark flavour- from the grains provided- but not the deep roasty / coffee I would expect from a porter having drunk a lot of them over the years. I used the two vanilla pods provided in the kit- which I cut open, scraped, and soaked in vanilla vodka prior to adding to the FV- and one further one which may have been a bit old and dry if I am honest- as you say I get no vanilla though the aroma and flavour WAS there when syphoning to bottles. It has been in the bottle since 27th November- so it will be 9 weeks bottled tomorrow.

What grains were provided. Porters typically have no it just a little roasted malt.

 

[Hengoedbrewer]

What grains were provided. Porters typically have no it just a little roasted malt.

Hiya

instructions say:

1 x Grain pack (300g Carafa special III, 120g Crystal Malt, 130g Caramunich malt)

Thanks

 

[Leon103]

Hiya

instructions say:

1 x Grain pack (300g Carafa special III, 120g Crystal Malt, 130g Caramunich malt)

Thanks

It must be the carafe that you are tasting unless its the dark malt extract.

 

[Hengoedbrewer]

It must be the carafe that you are tasting unless its the dark malt extract.

I have never used it before- only chrystal and chocolate in souped up kit brews- so maybe so! If it's not the best option it is weird it comes in a pre-packed kit though.... thanks for the reply. It was also light malt extract provided (dry).

 

[dad_of_jon]

Hengoedbrewer,

Try the chase spring water from lidl or tesco, it's no dearer than the morrisons table water. there's no info on the morrisons value water content it could be tap water bottled which is not what you want.

I'm happy to send you a bottle of downtown dubble which is an extract with grain recipe so you can see what's possible.

Don't give up though, you just need to get a hang of the settings & technique and you'll be sorted - don't start a syphon by sucking on it with your mouth. some say they've not had any issues, but is it worth the risk?

Regards,

DOJ

 

[Hengoedbrewer]

Hengoedbrewer,

Try the chase spring water from lidl or tesco, it's no dearer than the morrisons table water. there's no info on the morrisons value water content it could be tap water bottled which is not what you want.

I'm happy to send you a bottle of downtown dubble which is an extract with grain recipe so you can see what's possible.

Don't give up though, you just need to get a hang of the settings & technique and you'll be sorted - don't start a syphon by sucking on it with your mouth. some say they've not had any issues, but is it worth the risk?

Regards,

DOJ

Hi DOJ

That is really kind of you- I will PM you. I'd happily trade you a bottle of non vanilla-y non porter for your opinion but I don't think its a fair trade, though you might have some idea what went wrong on taste?

The syphon: I do do that yes! As you say some people say risk is negligible and some say it is a no no. I might invest in an auto syphon but I have put a lot of work and money in so far with not much result so was after some advice first before spending more- a thermapen is on the way to make sure temps are spot on though.

 

[braziliain]

Hi DOJ

That is really kind of you- I will PM you. I'd happily trade you a bottle of non vanilla-y non porter for your opinion but I don't think its a fair trade, though you might have some idea what went wrong on taste?

The syphon: I do do that yes! As you say some people say risk is negligible and some say it is a no no. I might invest in an auto syphon but I have put a lot of work and money in so far with not much result so was after some advice first before spending more- a thermapen is on the way to make sure temps are spot on though.

Don't spend money on an auto siphon. It's really easy to start a simple siphon just by pre filling three quarters of it with water or steriliser. Open the tap, let out the water into a spare jug and it drags the brew behind it. Once the beer gets to the tap, close it and move to wherever your beer is going before reopening the tap. I practiced a few times just with a Demijohn of water and a bucket until I got the technique down. Works great and will save you ££££. Plenty of folk don't rate the autos anyway due to leakage at the valve.

 

[Hengoedbrewer]

Don't spend money on an auto siphon. It's really easy to start a simple siphon just by pre filling three quarters of it with water or steriliser. Open the tap, let out the water into a spare jug and it drags the brew behind it. Once the beer gets to the tap, close it and move to wherever your beer is going before reopening the tap. I practiced a few times just with a Demijohn of water and a bucket until I got the technique down. Works great and will save you ££££. Plenty of folk don't rate the autos anyway due to leakage at the valve.

That's a useful tip- thank you!

 

[dad_of_jon]

Don't spend money on an auto siphon. It's really easy to start a simple siphon just by pre filling three quarters of it with water or steriliser. Open the tap, let out the water into a spare jug and it drags the brew behind it. Once the beer gets to the tap, close it and move to wherever your beer is going before reopening the tap. I practiced a few times just with a Demijohn of water and a bucket until I got the technique down. Works great and will save you �£�£�£�£. Plenty of folk don't rate the autos anyway due to leakage at the valve.

I had 2 years and 25 brews out of my autosyphon so that worked out a 52p a batch. there is also a turkey baster technique you can use thats cheaper than an autosyphon.

 

[johnnyboy1965]

A couple of points:-
2 vanilla pods is nowhere near enough. 30, quality, pods is more realistic and not the dried up vac-pak ones they sell in supermarkets. Buy quality on-line. you could use a quality vanilla extract and prime each bottle. The last bottle I bought cost £45.00 (enough for 200 pts) so it will put 22p on the price of a beer.
With the fresh vanilla pods, scrape out the seeds, put the actual pod into your boil. The seeds are too delicate to be boiled and you will loose all the flavour and aroma. Mix the seeds with 1/2 pint of boiled and cooled stock syrup (recipe for stock syrup is 1/4pt of water, 1/4 pt of sugar, boil and cool).
Put 1 tbs of this into your bottles and fill with beer.

I worked with fresh vanilla pods every day for 15 years and must of scraped thousands of them (until I found a quality exact)

Syphoning with your mouth...There are more good bacteria, than bad on your lips. if there wasnt your lips would fall off

Vanilla porter is quite a hard brew to get right. You have to balance the malts, vanilla, and the hops. Keep the hops low or you will overpower the vanilla ( no more than 20 IBU)