@ Hops_and_Dreams (Lagering using a picnic cool bag)

[MyQul]

@Hops_and_dreams

I know you proved that you can chill a mini keg using a cooler bag and ice and in fact you said your MK got too cool for your tastes. How cool did it get?

The reason why I'm asking is, I'm wondering if it's possible to lager/cold condition a MK at about 2C/3C using a picnic cool bag

 

[GlentoranMark]

Lagers only need about 10-14°?

 

[MyQul]

Lagers only need about 10-14°?

Thats for the fermentation part. I can do that using my brew bag or make a pseudo lager and ferment at ale temps. I'm interested in the cold conditioning/lagering part which is done at 2C/3C

 

[MyQul]

I'm going to go ahead and try this out. I'm going to buy this cool bag http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/partNumber/3147331.htm#pdpFullDesc Going by the measurements I'll be able to fit a mini keg in there and plenty of 2L ice bottles as going by my Cool Brewing Bag I might need quite a few to get the temp down to 2C/3C.
I packaged a bitter in MK's yesterday (Ale can benefit from cold conditioning just as as much a lager) so I'll give it a week or so to carb up then start the experiment

 

[Dutto]

My understanding is that "cold conditioning" can take many days (apparently eight weeks isn't unknown) so I'm not sure that I'd fancy all the running about changing the freezer packs that would be necessary with a cool bag.

For £49.99 Argos do an electric coolbox as per ...

http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/partNumber/4976477.htm

... and I reckon that it would be a much better (albeit more expensive) way of cold conditioning a mini-keg.

Hope this helps.:thumb:

 

[MyQul]

My understanding is that "cold conditioning" can take many days (apparently eight weeks isn't unknown) so I'm not sure that I'd fancy all the running about changing the freezer packs that would be necessary with a cool bag.

For �£49.99 Argos do an electric coolbox as per ...

http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/partNumber/4976477.htm

... and I reckon that it would be a much better (albeit more expensive) way of cold conditioning a mini-keg.

Hope this helps.:thumb:

Interesting Dutto (but expensive). My Cool Brewing brew bag which is essetially a massive cool bag only requires the ice bottles to be changed every 24 hours (although I usually change them sooner) so I'm hoping a picnic cool bag is similar

 

[Hops_and_Dreams]

@Hops_and_dreams

I know you proved that you can chill a mini keg using a cooler bag and ice and in fact you said your MK got too cool for your tastes. How cool did it get?

The reason why I'm asking is, I'm wondering if it's possible to lager/cold condition a MK at about 2C/3C using a picnic cool bag

Hi MyQul.

I don't know I'm afraid.

I tried a pint of my cascade smash the night before and it was quite hoppy at room temp, thought I'd try it cold so put some ice blocks and the keg in the bag the next morning and left it all day. It wasn't fridge temp cold, but it wasn't far off. My issue was that it definitely dulled the hop taste and the malt flavour came through more.

So, the short answer is that it was too cold for the style and my taste, rather than just too cold. This was in April (I think) too, but there was enough space for more blocks, so theoretically if your bag is big enough I guess you could.

 

[MyQul]

I finally got around to buying the cool bag today. I've just put a MK of Vienna pseudo lager/hybrid beer in there with 10L of ice bottles.
I also put a folded up towel on the top as when mashing I find doing this really effective for insulation so hopefully it will help with the cool bag's insulation
The instructions that came with the bag were absolutely minimal but if I'm reading it right it says it takes 4.5hrs to get down to 5C, which isnt far off fridge/lagering temps

 

[Dutto]

Hi MyQul.

........... I'd try it cold ...... it definitely dulled the hop taste and the malt flavour came through more.

..............

The reason breweries spend huge amounts of money chilling their beer is to kill the taste! :whistle: :whistle:

In my much younger days (i.e. those days when we had just a handful of gravel for breakfast; and we were the lucky ones!) the beer was what is now called "Real Ale" and was served at "cellar temperature"! :thumb: :thumb:

I really don't like cold beer. :nono: :nono: :nono:

 

[MyQul]

Well it's only been an hour and a half and its down to 12.5C from an ambient temp of 23C so looking good!

 

[Studders]

Will be watching to see how this goes, good luck!

 

[MyQul]

Yesterday it was at 12C. I swapped out the ice bottles a couple of hours ago and now its at about 8C.

What I think/hope is happening is the the thermal mass of the beer is taking a bit longer to cool down than the surrounding air in the cool bag. So by the time the beer has dropped a few degree the bottles are approx half melted and aren't really dropping the temp in the bag/beer just maintaining it. It's at that point I swap the ice bottles and the temp can then drop a few degrees more and the whole cycle starts again

 

[Studders]

Could add some ice cubes with some salt to get it down faster?

 

[MyQul]

Just to update this thread. I was only able to get the temp down to 12C as the maximum amount of ice + the mini keg, I could fit into the cool bag was 9.5L. The 8C temp I recorded was probably due to me taking it pretty soon after swapping out the ice bottles and it was the air temp in the bag rather than when everything (the thermal mass of the MK full of beer) had levelled out. So for now I'm going to have to concede defeat.

I say, for now, as this isn't the end of the story. One thing I've recently discovered with my cool brewing bag (basically a MASSIVE cool bag to put a FV + ice bottles in to ferment with),is that when the ambient temp is above a certain temp it takes more ice to cool the temp in the bag down. What this ambient temp is I'm unsure but when the ambient temp is below this critical temp it only takes 1L of ice to drop the temp in the brew bag by 1C. When the amient temp is above this crititical temp it takes 2L of ice to drop the temp in the brew bag by 1C

I'm guessing this might be the same for the picnic cool bag as their just different sizes of exactly the same thing. So I plan on trying this experiment out again in the winter when it only takes 1L of ice to drop the temp 1C in the brew bag.

With the picnic bag I was able to drop the temp by 10 degree C using 9.5L of ice bottles from 22C ambient to 12C in the bag. If what I suspect it true about the critical ambient temp, it means that I should be able to drop the temp by about 20 degrees C with 9.5L of ice. Also the ambient temp in my kitchen will of course be lower. Last winter iirc it was about 18C on the kitchen floor. So if I can drop the temp by 20 degrees in the picnic bag I should be able to lager/cold condition in it. So watch this space and I'll repeat the experiment when my kitchen floor is 20C or lower