IPA questions

[tester]

Hi all,
I have a thread in the kit area where I started with 3 kits after a good 20 years absence to brewing. The 3 were MJ Mango IPA, MJ Grapefruit IPA, and Coopers Euro. I'm a canadian lager drinker so the IPAs were more for my wife who loves them. I don't mind a few of the local craft ones, but am fairly picky as I am not big on the big bitter finishes. One thing I have found with all 3, is they all have that bitter finish, with the Coopers being the least of course. After sitting for 2-3 weeks this has lessened considerably but is missing the 'skunkiness' I would expect from a euro lager.

But anyways, my questions are more on the IPA side. When I tried the 2 at about a week, they were weak on flavor, but very strong on the bitter finish. After leaving for a couple more weeks, they have tamed down considerably, but relatively meaning the flavor has dropped along with the bite.

We have a very good local IPA in the fridge, and I'd describe it (for this discussion) like a wave on a graph, with the initial flavor as a 5 out of 10, going to an 8 with citrus and floral flavors, going to a 5 at the end when the IPA bitterness finish takes over. Most craft IPAs I have tried here follow a similar profile with a flavor burst in the middle that has a hint of sweetness and lots of flavor, and just a hint of bitterness that is what is finally left as the flavor dissipates upon swallowing. However, both of these MJ's I would describe as 4-4-5. You actually have to concentrate and take a few sips to discern or describe any real fruit or floral flavor, of which there really isn't any. It's just not overly enjoyable, with the ending the most pronounced part of the swig... the part I like the least like eating a grapefruit peel.

So to salveage these, I think I will try a scoop of frozen concentrated fruit juice on the next pours to see how that goes. A local brewery adds juices to one of their IPAs and it turns out really nice.

But I have an MJ Session IPA here that I will do in the future. I'm wondering how I can brew this and get what I want, or if that is possible at home the traditional brew way. I want to go to the brewery we go to and ask the brewer there how they get the flavor punch as I am wondering if they filter the yeast, add juice, then force carbonate with a CO2 tank to preserve the recipe and not let the yeast change it any more..

- Do people add concentrated juices prior to bottling? I'd think the yeast would convert the sugar in that as well, so not sure what would be left.
- Would a different hops other than what MJ provides add more flavor? I don't want more bitterness.
- I tasted some of the canned malt with the Coopers Euro and that already had a bitterness to it.. Do the HOPS add much when they are added to the end? I always thought they were responsible for that but the coopers syrup made me question that.

 

[Clint]

The initial bitterness in kits is in the malt liquid,the end hops if included add a little bitterness but are there for aroma and flavour.
If the bitterness isn't something you like you need to look at what the kits are targeting...it should be on the instructions. A lot if American type IPA can target bitterness of 40 to 50 IBU which is a lot if you don't like it...most lagers are under 20. You can't reduce the kit IBU (International bittering units) as its pre determined.

 

[tester]

Thanks.. The bitterness I don't mind in the MJ kits as it has calmed down. What they seem to be severely lacking is the flavor in the middle that I would like to increase about 4-5x from what I have brewed of the 2 from them. Would adding way more hops increase this flavor then? I loved the smell of them when opened before putting in. The craft stuff just seems so full and juicy in the flavor department, with the MJ being watery.. can't describe it any other way.

Is it just the malt that makes it bitter? I used malt for the sweetener in those 2 MJ's, a light liquid malt, but the stuff tasted like Ovaltine with zero bitterness to it.

 

[Nicks90]

I agree with most of what you have said, that the MJ kits can be a bit thin and lack some depth of flavour in the hop profile.
i know its a bit of a cheat - but I added a slug of Ting to the bottom of my pint pot and filled the rest with the MJ beer. Problem sorted.

 

[Tanglefoot]

The craft stuff just seems so full and juicy in the flavor department, with the MJ being watery.. can't describe it any other way.

That's just the limitation of kits though,
you can't really expect a can kit to compare with an all grain 'craft' ale.
Next step up would be try a partial mash,
all you need is a grain bag and a pan.
https://www.themaltmiller.co.uk/pro...rtial-grain-brewing-mini-mash/?v=79cba1185463
Additional dry hopping would help as well if you're trying to get a fuller flavour
but using some mashed grain will help improve the thinness you describe.

 

[tester]

Great... more eyerolls from the wife when I bring home more equipment

How are the lagers, or Coopers Cerveza kits for flavor? I have a coopers cerveza waiting, but don't have any lager kits yet. I found the Coopers Euro Ale to be very drinkable, but again slightly lacking in the taste compared to a Peroni or Stella (not nearly as much lack of flavor as the MJ IPAs are)..

 

[jeremy Hall]

Had a pint of Cornish IPA in a pub on the river near Blackfriars yesterday. Lovely spot, but the pint was very happy, bitter, tasted young. Drank it but didn't think much of it. But at £6.50 I wasn't not going to drink it. Had one of my bulldog crazy batch bitters when I got home. Much nicer and much cheaper. I like an IPA, and I've had IPA in Cornwall which was lovely, but didn't think much of that one I bought.

 

[tester]

So I bought some 5 Alive citrus punch frozen concentrate and a scoop makes these two MJ's drinkable subbing in some of the missing flavor.

Question though, I have an MJ Juicy Sessions IPA sitting here. I bought a few MJ's at the store as they were blowing them out and discontinuing them due to how much the prices have risen for them, so have this one IPA left (also have the Belgium wit). I have a feeling it would just turn out like the mango/grapefruit IPAs that really are pretty hard to tell apart, and are not that great as per above. I'm not too stoked on brewing this in a couple months to get the same results as those two, but hate to waste it so willing to get a bit sciency lol. Is there any way to add to this kit to get more of the citrus punch, while not increasing the bitterness that this will have (the MJ site says it will be the same bitterness as the mango/grapefruit kits).

Tanglefoot, you said to do additional dry hopping.. would that entail me buying more hops to add over and above what they provide or just leaving it in longer? How much? The MJ site just describes their hops as "citra" for this kit, so I assume just that one hop.. should I get more of 'just' that type?

The IPA I like at the brewery down the street from my work describes theirs as this:

"7 % | 20 IBU
......... We also hopped the hell out of this beer with a medley of Cashmere, Galaxy, Nelson Sauvin, Belma, and Amarillo hops to give it a complex mishmash of hop derived notes."

Willing to experiment with this kit. Quite a wide combo of hops in the craft as well vs just one in the kit.

Would adding mashed grain be basically the same as brewing this down at something like 18L (vs the 23 recommended)?

 

[tester]

Did a bit more reading on brew sites.. ordered up an oz each of Nelson Sauvin, Galaxy, Eldorado, Cashmere and Amarillo hops. Thinking of mixing together with the MJ citra, weighing out what I need, then vac sealing and freezing the rest. I'm not sure what sort of weight comes with the MJ kit (their site implies 20-30g), but would 2oz total mix of these be ok.. too much.. not enough for a juicy ipa?

Some sites say that is right for an IPA, but some say 1oz per gallon or even 2...

 

[Nicks90]

I think nothing of putting 100gms of hops on to a 15l batch of IPA

10gm for the bitterness at 60min boil, maybe 30gm at 5 min for aroma and the rest as a dry hop.
You already have the bitterness as it's a kit, so stick the lot in as dry hop and enjoy

 

[jof]

I think it's also based on your personal choice.
So from taste testing your first attempt you can work out if you need to add more (or less) next time.
Then once you know that, you can try different hops.
While you are in this stage, it's helpful to save a few bottles from each batch, so you can compare them

 

[tester]

I think nothing of putting 100gms of hops on to a 15l batch of IPA

10gm for the bitterness at 60min boil, maybe 30gm at 5 min for aroma and the rest as a dry hop.
You already have the bitterness as it's a kit, so stick the lot in as dry hop and enjoy

So the term 'dry hop'.. does that mean as the MJ directions say.. put in for 2-3 days at the end right prior to bottling after SG has leveled off?

I already find the MJ's too bitter so don't want to add more. I'm thinking though it's because the overall flavor is so weak that they seem really bitter. I'm going to guess the bitterness would be ok with just more of the flavors.. so that's what I am looking for with this experiment.

 

[jof]

Traditional recipes say the bittering hops go in at the start of the boil, flavour hops with 10-15 minutes to go & aroma at flameout.

This isn't hard and fast, as I now omitt the flavour hops in the boil & do a combined flavour/aroma at flameout (end of boil)

Dry hopping will have most effect on aroma (and cloudyness) as you are substituting high temperature for length of steeping.

 

[tester]

I'm going to be using an MJ 'juicy IPA' kit I have bought. Trying to add more flavor to it as I don't want to toss it based on the meh results from the grapefruit and mango IPA from them. So no boiling.

 

[Birdsnestbrewery]

So the term 'dry hop'.. does that mean as the MJ directions say.. put in for 2-3 days at the end right prior to bottling after SG has leveled off?

Some people add them while fermentation is still active but yes, dry hop means adding hops to cooled wort in the fermenter (or even after that) as opposed to at the start or end of the boil.