KEEPING BOTTLES WARM FOR PRIMING. and POOR CARBONATION.

[Waterboy]

Could people please share there methods for warming up/keeping bottles warm when carbonating there cider.

Its finnally got so cold in my house that if i didnt heat my brews and bottles nothing would happen (its curently 17 deg C in my brew room).
im assuming this must be a common problem in the uk due to the climate so you all must have methods surely?
Im currently sitting my bottles in a couple of inches of water, in a deep polystyrene tray, with an aquarium heater keeping them at 21 deg C

also on another topic- poor carbonation.

ive read a few of the recent threads on poor carbonation and people have replyed with various reasons why this would happen, including - not enough sugar, not warm enough, etc etc. but one persons reply got me thinking.
the person (cant remember who sorry) mentioned that poor carbonation would occur 'especially in cider due to its low nutrient content'

So, when priming bottles of cider for carbonation, would adding some yeast nutrient aswell as the usual tsp or whatever of sugar be beneficial?

 

[graysalchemy]

I built an insulated cabinet with a tube heater and an atc-800 temp controller. I have moveable shelves so that I can put bottles in for carbonation. I tend to brew at about 19c same for carbonation.

With regards to bottles not carbonating firstly I batch prime that is calculate you volume then work out how much sugar you need for the batch, I use 7g per litre, then weigh it out and disolve it in a little boiling water. Next you want to place this in a clean sterilized vessel them Siphon your beer onto this and all the beer should be fairly well mixed. Now bottle.

Leave on heat for about a week at 19-20c, then put it somewhere cool. It will take about a month to condition. They say you need a week conditioning per 10 deg of gravity so a beer of 1040 will take a month to condition.

Time and patience solves most carbonation problems.

Hope that helps. :thumb:

 

[Waterboy]

thank you for your reply. as i said this is my first brew since the drop in temp so hopefully im doing everything right and will get a lovely fizzz :

 

[cleslie]

Since I started brewing I have been testing different methods to try and understand why I have have the same kit of beer come out with mixed carbonation results.
After scratching my head for ages I have finally found another cause to flat beer: The bottles and type of capping machine.

To be honest the safest bet is just to use screw tops in PET bottles but I went through a phase where I loved to bottle my Coopers mexican cerveza in Sol and Corona bottles to make them look the part. It was a complete gamble sometimes when popping the lid off. Sometimes they would fly off and leave a nicely carbonated beer. Others were just plain flat. In fact last week I tipped 20 bottles out in a row.

The problem I have concluded is that seeing I use a cheap capping machine like this: http://mountainhomebrew.com/browseprodu ... Model.html you need to have bottles that have about a 2 cm lip. Corona and Sol (along with a lot of other commercial bottles) have a small lip. You can notice the difference when bottling a bottle with a long lip as it feels like you have got a great seal and the cap is well stuck on.

I think you are fine with more expense capping machines that press down on a sitting bottle. Anyhow I have used mixed bottles in my last batch with the same beer coming out more carbonated from PET screw tops and 2cm lip bottles than the others. Although I shake my bottles after capping to hear if any leaks I can only assume that gas must still be escaping from the less sealed bottles.

 

[Vossy1]

When I started brewing I didn't have a lot of gear and had the same problems.
I overcame the heating side by wiring a 100w light bulb to a household thermostsat and using the cupboard under the stairs got on O.K.
The cooling side was equally as 'easy' but we don't want to talk about the cold....brrrr..

 

[Waterboy]

To be honest the safest bet is just to use screw tops in PET bottles

.The problem I have concluded is that seeing I use a cheap capping machine like this: http://mountainhomebrew.com/browseprodu ... Model.html

interesting. i was originally using PET bottles and had mixed results. ive only recently started using a bottle capper, very similar to the one you linked. its the youngs one. ive not yet tried any of the end product.

i must admit, im convinced it has to do with the way you introduce the sugar for priming. for eg. ive heard (on this forum) that sugar thats been disolved in water is more readily accepted by the yeast than just plain sugar. then of course theres different and perhaps the correct forms of sugar, like dextrose and fructose etc.
and of course people have claimed sucsess with priming with cordials. i put that down to the sugars involved not only being of type readily acceptable by the yeast, but also just simply being already disolved.
(i am more than ready to jump on the cordial priming band-wagon)

another aspect that i thought might influence carbonation outcome is the yeast used.
ive used 'youngs cider yeast' and 'youngs super wine yeast compound' and had carbonation sucsess and failure with both, but am starting to think that maybe the wine yeast doesnt yield as good a cider as it ferments down lower, and doesnt respond to a secondary, bottled 'priming ferment' as well as a cider yeast.

is that a known problem with using the wrong yeast? should i be more strict with which yeast i use?

 

[graysalchemy]

Like with anything to do with brewing there are so many variables, but if you keep them constant throughout a batch then you should have good results. House hold suagr is fine but what you need to do is acuurately add the same amount of sugar for a given volume into each bottle and the only way to do that is to batch prime as descibed above and also make sure it si evenly distributed within the wort by giving it a gentle stir. Then next thing to do is to make sure they all get an even temp. In my ferm cupboard the top is warmer that the bottom so I have to move bottles around.

 

[alphacento]

Hello Waterboy,

I usually bottle between 20 and 30 bottles each time. to keep them warm enough while carbonating (especially during winter) I place them in a carton box and near an heating source. At this stage it usually on 22-23 C. After about 1-2 weeks i put them in my cellar where it is about 17-16 at the moment.

Take care

 

[tonyhibbett]

I'm a newcomer to cider and have found freshly pressed apple juice rather inconsistent and unreliable with yeast, either native or added. Initial limited exposure to fresh air (oxygen) frequent stirring and yeast nutrient helps a lot. Grapes, generally, are more reliable, so I'm sticking to winemaking. You can make good wine with pure apple juice and grape concentrate.

 

[aggyluke]

cleslie - i hate to hear of anyone wasting beer! just in case you ever get a flat beer again, don't pour it away! I had around 14ltrs of flat coopers cerveza, half seemed to fizz up nicely but the other half nothing.

This might sound not sound very nice but try mixing the lager equal parts to TC and prime again with a generous glug of original Ribena.

Tastes lovely (although it sounds rank) and should have plenty of fizz...good ol' snakebite! :

 

[graysalchemy]

Tastes lovely (although it sounds rank) and should have plenty of fizz...good ol' snakebite! :

Sorry :sick: :sick:

I would make vinegar out of it and pickle some onions instead of my liver. :lol:

 

[aggyluke]

each to there own GA!! :

 

[shocker]

re : Heating - the lightbulb concept is probably the best and most straightforward and as mentioned ,linked to a domestic thermostat (about a fiver if you look) will give you a good constant temp .But do be aware of where you place the 'stat ,bearing in mind the variables of the space you are heating and the thermodynamics ,that is ,heat goes up ,sort of thing....

A cheap way to get a heating tray is to buy a large electric heated propagator and sit whatever in that ,sans lid of course .If you want to moderate the heat a bit put it on a timer plug ,on/off...on/off as much as is needed to get a fairly even heat effect .They dont pull a lot of power and the contacts of a timer plug will handle the current ,which is more than can be said for most heating devices .

re : Carbonation of Cider - I have found that using the same method as with bottling beer that has been fined and rested works well .That is , priming with either granulated sugar or glucose (dextrose) powder and dropping in a few grains of dried yeast .HOWEVER in the case of cider I use an all purpose yeast compound like Formula 67 or Youngs which has nutrients included .The only problem here is that sometimes you dont get regular granules but a mix of dried yeast beads and powders of the various additives ,and using even a small pinch may be way too much .In this situation I measure out the amount of yeast compound needed to prime all the bottles and add it to some of the cider along with all the priming sugar in a jug ,mix it well and use a syringe to measure out the dose for each before syphoning .
This way everything gets spread around equally and a few days of warm ,maybe a week and then into the cool - the longer the better . :thumb:

BUT.....I may not have the best ideas going ,see corollary below

 

[Waterboy]

shocker- adding a few grains of the yeast+nutrient when batch priming sounds interesting. i might try that next time.

all in all i think this is an excellent thread with loads of good advice and info. thanks everyone. :

armed with all this knowledge now, there can be no excuse if i suffer a bad carbonation!

now to get drinking......