Leffe Radieuse Clone

[UKSkydiver]

I was going to do a Leffe Brun . . . . however, I've done one of those and @Agentgonzo keeps banging on about this Radieuse thing (which does sound everso lovely) so I thought I'd see what I had in stock, and bless my soul, I think I have just about what I need with some artistic interpretations.

I'd be particularly interested in what you think about my hop substitutions as I don't have Hall. Mitt. and I am wanting to try and use up what I have. I'm not interested in hoppy stuff so I just stuck what I have for low IBU bittering and a bit of Saaz for the late addition.

Further, this is quite a big beer and I only have one sachet of Flushed Nun. I have temp control so I could whack the temp up a bit, plus I have some other dry yeasts in stock, such as Four / Firm which might be neutral enough, Again, I would like to hear your thoughts.

Thank you

Leffe Radieuse Clone​

70% efficiency
Batch Volume: 22 L
Boil Time: 30 min
Mash Water: 24.9 L
Sparge Water: 4.75 L
Total Water: 29.65 L
Boil Volume: 25.21 L
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1057

Vitals​

Original Gravity: 1070
Final Gravity: 1012
IBU (Tinseth): 20
BU/GU: 0.27
Colour: 51.5 EBC

Mash​

Temperature — 66 °C — 55 min

Malts (6.05 kg)​

4.9 kg (73.1%) — Lager Malt — Grain — 3.9 EBC
400 g (6%) — Munich Malt — Grain — 17.7 EBC
250 g (3.7%) — Amber Malt — Grain — 60 EBC
250 g (3.7%) — Simpsons Crystal DRC — Grain — 300 EBC
250 g (3.7%) — Simpsons Crystal Medium — Grain — 179 EBC

Other (650 g)​

350 g (5.2%) — Candi Sugar, Dark — Sugar — 540 EBC — Boil — 10 min
300 g (4.5%) — Sugar, Table (Sucrose) — Sugar — 2 EBC — Boil — 10 min

Hops (43 g)​

18 g (7 IBU) — Celeia 4.2% — First Wort
15 g (12 IBU) — Northern Brewer 9.5% — Boil — 30 min
20 g (1 IBU) — Saaz 3.4% 3.4% — Aroma — 20 min hopstand

Hopstand at 80 °C

Yeast​

1 pkg — CML Flushed Nun 76%

 

[Agentgonzo]

Belgian abbey/trappist aren't very hop forward or bitter so I wouldn't worry too much about trying to match the hops exactly. Go for a relatively neutral noble hop. Saaz is a good substitute. I probably wouldn't worry too much for the aroma/hopstand addition (my recipe just used a 60 min addition only). I haven't used Celeia but it's an offshoot of Styrian Goldings apparently, so is probably fine. I'd probably suggest losing the late additions and going for a full length addition to hit the 20 IBUs.

I haven't used flushed Nun (I known CML just repackage other brands, and don't know what this one really is). Temperature control is important for these big Belgians. Good advice from known names in the community (can't remember which, but they get mentioned a lot) is generally to pitch it around 20 degrees and settle it there for the first day, but then let it free rise (turn off the temp control) for the next while until it's mostly done fermenting. It'll likely get up to about 25 degrees. Above that, you may want to nudge it down a bit, but I'd aim for getting it to around that temperature. This particular Leffe is high in phenols and fruity esters and you want those from the yeast. I brewed a version of this in December and (along with slightly reduced sugar/candy syrup) it was at the peril for winter in my utility room and the temperature dropped to the high teens. It was a pale comparison to my previous batch of it, sadly.

1 packet of yeast probably won't be enough. It'll ferment out, but it'll take longer and you may not get those lovely fruity esters with under-pitching the yeast. Given the OG will be high (1.070) I would see if you can get another packet of yeast, or build up a starter. I probably wouldn't use four/firm because you want those belgian yeast characteristics (not sure what you'll get from s-04 if you ferment it hot though).

I'm lead to believe that Special B is a crucial element in belgian recipes (even though it's not obvious whether breweries use it or not). But I've found it does add a really nice raisin/plum flavour to the beer which really help. But if you don't have it, then you can't add it .

Anyway, let us know how it turns out! This beer likes to age (at least 2 months, but it seems to get better all the way up to about 4-6 months).

 

[UKSkydiver]

I very much appreciate your time and sharing your thoughts. I have read your comments on 'aging' it a bit, so that is my plan also.

I would be more than happy to share a bottle with you in the fullness of time.

Cheers

 

[Agentgonzo]

I very much appreciate your time and sharing your thoughts. I have read your comments on 'aging' it a bit, so that is my plan also.

I would be more than happy to share a bottle with you in the fullness of time.

Cheers

My original batch is long-consumed. The latest batch isn't up to snuff. I'm going to do another one this summer so that it's ready for Winter, so I can reciprocate assuming it passes the quality bar.

 

[An Ankoù]

I'm lead to believe that Special B is a crucial element in belgian recipes (even though it's not obvious whether breweries use it or not). But I've found it does add a really nice raisin/plum flavour to the beer which really help. But if you don't have it, then you can't add it

I understand that Simpsons Double Roasted Crystal, Special B, Weyermanns Special W and Bestmalz Special X are all pretty much the same beast with the Special X being just a tad lighter.

 

[An Ankoù]

Not a great lover of Leffe, but I discovered the Radieuse just before they stopped making it. Delicious. I might have a go myself. I'm thinking, perhaps, Chimay yeast? or would Westmalle be better?

 

[samale]

I brewed something very similar before Christmas,


5kg pilsner
500g Munich
300g Belgian special B
200g Belgian Cara Munich 2
1kg of medium Candi sugar

15gmagnum@fwh
25g saaz@15mins

Yeast wlp530 from my previous single

IMG_20221104_140212937_HDR.jpg

 

[Agentgonzo]

Not a great lover of Leffe, but I discovered the Radieuse just before they stopped making it. Delicious. I might have a go myself. I'm thinking, perhaps, Chimay yeast? or would Westmalle be better?

You could always have a go at reculturing the yeast from a bottle of leffe. I'm guessing they use the same yeast across all their beers (most do). (ie, I don't know )

 

[An Ankoù]

You could always have a go at reculturing the yeast from a bottle of leffe. I'm guessing they use the same yeast across all their beers (most do). (ie, I don't know )

That's a good idea, unless they're filtered, of course, which makes it a bit trickier. I think I've got a 75 of Rituel knocking around somewhere. I'll give it a bit of swirl and see if anything pops up.

 

[YeastFace]

I understand that Simpsons Double Roasted Crystal, Special B, Weyermanns Special W and Bestmalz Special X are all pretty much the same beast with the Special X being just a tad lighter.

I agree. I used DRC in an all-British malt Dubbel to good effect. Definitely had that raisin character.

 

[Agentgonzo]

For reference, here is my recipe (which I didn't create originally, nor did the forum I got it off. I think it was originally a JZ recipe that got tweaked along the way).

https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/july-belgian-beers-competition.99298/post-1156319https://community.grainfather.com/recipes/710262

 

[Agentgonzo]

That's a good idea, unless they're filtered, of course, which makes it a bit trickier. I think I've got a 75 of Rituel knocking around somewhere. I'll give it a bit of swirl and see if anything pops up.

I have a feeling the blonde is probably filtered. But I don't honestly know and don't know about the others

 

[Agentgonzo]

Boil Time: 30 min

Oh, I just saw this too.

Without wanting to reignite the debate about what's necessary for a bunch of chemistry etc, I would strongly recommend a longer boil in this instance. I honestly don't know whether maillard/Caramelisation reactions happen in the wort whilst it's boiling, a but a long boil will concentrate the wort and thus the flavours. My recipe uses a 90 minute boil (I think the only one I've ever done a 90 minute boil for). The last batch I mistakenly only did for 60 minutes and this (combined with the lower fermentation temperature) contributed to the lack of flavour in the second batch.

 

[UKSkydiver]

Thanks for your thoughts - noted on the longer boil

I don't have - and I wont be able to obtain - the extra yeast for this weekend, so I'm going to park this for now and brew later.

So instead I will do an Old Thumper clone, which I think I have all the bits for.

Cheers

 

[Caramel Ox]

The Leffe blonde I have here has no bottled yeast that I can see. I normally buy cml yeast but they don’t differentiate their 3 Belgian options so I have a sachet of t58 instead ready for when I make a Leffe. I have seen it recommended a lot and it is also one of the cheapest yeasts (the reason for any price difference is a mystery to me).

 

[UKSkydiver]

Update
I brewed this Friday / yesterday / today.
Here is the tweaked recipe

Leffe Radieuse​

Belgian Dubbel
7.7% / 17.4 °P
Recipe by
Phil Hartree
All Grain

001 - BrewZilla 35L - 22LitreBatch​

70% efficiency
Batch Volume: 22 L
Boil Time: 80 min
Mash Water: 25.2 L
Sparge Water: 7.18 L
Total Water: 32.38 L
Boil Volume: 27.96 L
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1052

Vitals​

Original Gravity: 1071
Final Gravity: 1012
IBU (Tinseth): 18
BU/GU: 0.25
Colour: 52 EBC

Mash​

Temperature — 66 °C — 55 min

Malts (6.15 kg)​

5 kg (73%) — Lager Malt — Grain — 3.9 EBC
400 g (5.8%) — Munich Malt — Grain — 17.7 EBC
250 g (3.7%) — Amber Malt — Grain — 60 EBC
250 g (3.7%) — Simpsons Crystal DRC — Grain — 300 EBC
250 g (3.7%) — Simpsons Crystal Medium — Grain — 179 EBC

Other (700 g)​

350 g (5.1%) — Brown Sugar, Light — Sugar — 15.8 EBC
350 g (5.1%) — Candi Sugar, Dark — Sugar — 540 EBC — Boil — 10 min

Hops (41 g)​

22 g (11 IBU) — Fuggles 4.2% — Boil — 80 min
15 g (6 IBU) — Saaz 3.4% 3.4% — Boil — 80 min
4 g (2 IBU) — Celeia 4.2% — Boil — 80 min

Miscs​

10 ml — CRS/AMS — Mash
5 g — Calcium Chloride (CaCl2) — Mash
1.9 g — Canning Salt (NaCl) — Mash
0.05 g — Sodium Metabisulfite (Na2S2O5) — Mash
1 items — Protafloc — Boil — 15 min

Yeast​

2 pkg — CML Flushed Nun 76%

Fermentation​

Primary — 18 °C — 21 days

Notes / Issues / Stuffs

I elected to modify the suggested Brewfather additions by putting in some CaCl to up the balance in favour of a malt forward brew. (Very full / malty 0.6)

Friday night I did an overnight mash. But the main 66c mash went on for about two hours because I fell asleep in front of the telly. Hey ho. Set the overnight thing to 55c for 7 or so hours and did the (80 min) boil (Thank you @Agentgonzo for your input on this) in the morning before going to the gym. Let it cool / No Chill naturally during the day / overnight.

Sunday: Rehydrated two packets of CML Flushed Nun in some cooled boiled water. It all clumped up to I needed to get rid of the lumps with a (sanitised) spoon. Pitched at 24-25c along with a bit of DAP nutrient. It was clearly happy because I got hubbly-bubbly within 5 hours. Set the fridge to cool to 18c after the intial 6 hours at 21c

As per usual, my efficiency went up to about 77% (BF stats) using the overnight mash. Ended up with 23.5 litres of 1074 wort with an expected ABV of 8%

BF link here:

 

[Agentgonzo]

But the main 66c mash went on for about two hours because I fell asleep in from of the telly.

Pitched at 24-25c

I've not used flushed nun. Next time I brew this (next year) I'll do a split batch between the MJ yeast I've been using and flushed nun to see what the difference is.

The first time I brewed this, it was naturally warm same delicious. The second time was over Christmas and the temp dropped to 18-20 and it was just lacking those wonderful Belgian fruity flavours. The third attempt was held at 23-24 degrees for fermentation and those fruity/spicy flavours are back. Fermenting high definitely helps IMO.

I reread Brew like a monk and took inspiration from the fermentation temperature. Westmalle ferments 18-20 whereas westvleteren ferments 24-28 (from memory, figures probably aren't accurate... Also, I've been on the bubbles). For what I was after, definitely ferment warm/hot.

Looking forward to how this turns out for you skydiver!

 

[UKSkydiver]

The third attempt was held at 23-24 degrees for fermentation and those fruity/spicy flavours are back. Fermenting high definitely helps IMO.

I will turn the heater on then!

I did do a Google search on Belgian temps (and I also looked in the James Morton 'Brew' book and all of his are 18c) and it was a lower end of the range.

Thanks

 

[Agentgonzo]

I will turn the heater on then!

I did do a Google search on Belgian temps (and I also looked in the James Morton 'Brew' book and all of his are 18c) and it was a lower end of the range.

Thanks

As I said, there is a big variation, so there is no "wrong" temperature... You'll just get different results (which you'll have anyway due to different yeast etc)

 

[Caramel Ox]

The takeaway I got from BLAM was that most are pitching at about 20 and letting it free rise to about 25. I don’t think that fermentations do free rise so much at a home brew scale because of the smaller volume to surface area. Not sure it would make very much difference between picking the mid point and manually increasing the temperature daily?