Maxi 300 instead of a fridge

[Newtons Shed]

Hi all,

For those that don't me (I'm new on here) I'm in the midst of a keggle herms rebuild on a very tight budget, hopefully be finished for the spring. As I will be brewing in the shed I have a couple jobs left to do.

So whilst I'm waiting I'm also planning the build and as doing everything for the first time in the shed, I also want build a fermenting cupboard. Due to tight space, I don't think it will fit a fridge/(chest)freezer. I also don't see the cooling side to be too much of an issue, given the temp in the shed and batch size be 9 Gallon split into 2X 20L plastic buckets. So I plan to build a box dubble skimmed with insulation in the cavity with a 60W tube heater inside connected to an ATC 800+.

For the cooling side I'm thinking of using a Maxi beer chiller (as I have it) and very simply plumb some copper tubing around the inside of the cupboard and connect the flows & return to the maxi chiller. I don't really want the expense or hassel of adding product coils in or water jacket around the FVs for the batch size I'm doing it would be overkill, nor am I too fussed (at least at the mo) about having each fv independantly controlled, I'm just looking to have a cupboard at a stable consistant tempreture around 19 degrees and if needed a way to cool it. Would this work to bring the ambient tempreture down if it got too hot?
I also like the idea if it did work to extend and divide the cupboard in 2 and have one side as the fv chamber and other as the conditioning chamber again using a seperate controler, tube heater but the same mmaxi cooler as can runupto 4 products lines have one going into the FV and the other 2 going to the conditioning side.
Thanks and sorry for the long post!¬

 

[Vossy1]

Hi NS,

Would this work to bring the ambient tempreture down if it got too hot?

In a word NO. FV v ambient could differ by as much as 8 deg c or more at the height of fermentation so if you want accurate fv control the only real option is to have reactive temperature control

I don't really want the expense or hassel of adding product coils in or water jacket around the FVs for the batch size I'm doing it would be overkill

Why use a product coil and why does it have to be expensive :hmm: Have you thought of using one of these or you could use an immersion chiller.

 

[evanvine]

Welcome to the Forum NS.
You are the second person to use the word "Keggle", is this the new word for "kegerator"?

 

[Newtons Shed]

Hi Vossy, I used to follow you a bit on the other formum took me awhile to find this one as I dip in and out, when I get a chance I do the proper introduction..

The conicals are too big for my needs but also am I right in thinking that this would still need some way to cool? Also as I plan to use the same mash, I for majority of time intend to split the 9g into 2 X20l (4.5g) brews so I can use either different hops or/and yeast.

Reading another forum I thought there was issue with using copper in the fv, it's ok pre boil but not for fermenting wort? I would also be worried about infection? Also as batch size is so small would be worried about thermal shocking the yeast?

Hi Evanvine, it's probably the sameperson posted a few times and may have used that phase in different posts. I understand a keggle is the common term for a brewery made from those pub style beer kegs (Firkins) coverted into a HLT, Mash Tun & Boiler. I think it an American phase.

Thanks Andy

 

[Swift Pint]

Yeah, I think if you are using an immersion coil in your fermenting wort then it will need to be stainless steel (something to do with PH changes as alcohol is produced that copper doesnt get on well with? :wha: )

In terms of thermally shocking the yeast, I think you just need to be very careful with the rate at which you pump cool water round the coil.

Ive got a maxi chiller cooling my setup, I've got a waterbath made from an insulated big plastic storage tub, with my beer in demijohns sat in the waterbath - it can only fit 4. The waterbath has a coil in it which is hooked up to the maxi chiller. I'm using measuring the water bath temp which is triggering the chillers pump to come on and off , and I've found that if the pump comes on any more than 5-10 seconds at a time then the temperature of my water bath plummets. So be careful when setting up. (dont mention the overkill!)

In terms of infection I don't think sterilising a SS coil would be too hard.

 

[evanvine]

Ta for the info Andy. :thumb:

 

[Newtons Shed]

I wasn't sure about a waterbath just don't like the idea of plastic fvs with taps being sat in water sounds like a breading ground for bacteria, I guess could use sterlising fluid, then do you have you an immersion type heater to heat the waterbath if/when needed. Are water more efficient then dry air/ambient temp control? Also do you have the demijohns at the same temp?

How do you find the Maxi to work I understand tehy're not very good at being constantly turned on/off and worry that this may occurr is this type of set up and damage the maxi?

It just seems to me, the most common method of controlling fv temp is a keggorator ie a chest freezer/fridge/freezer with tube heater and controller, I guess it's because that's the easiest way to have some temp control.

I just don't quite get what the difference is between using a fridge to cool a cupboard, compared to using copper tubing fitted around the inside of the cupboard recirculating cold water doing a similar thing as a fridge. OK it may have a slow response time but again wouldn't a fridge?

 

[Swift Pint]

The waterbath seems to have a good impact of stabilising the beer temperatures, yes they are all more or less at the same temp. I think water is much better for stabilising the temperatures than just cooling the ambient air.
However the main reason I went with it is because its not possible to get a coil inside a demijohn.

I think turning the chiller on and off in rapid succession would cause issues for the compressor.
I've amended mine so that the compressor and the pump run off seperate plugs - reasonably easily achieved.
The compressor is plugged in all the time and has its own thermostat which turns it on when needed.
I've got the pump controlled by an arduino (mini control board for electrical prototyping), but this could easily be controlled by one of the boxes that our nice sponsor at the top sells.

I would have gone for a fridge/keggerator but I dont have the space.

Not sure what the differences between a fridge and your proposed set up are.... maybe someone more techie can shed light onto it?

Edit:
forgot to mention, I don't have a heater, but rely on the tub gradually being warmed by the ambient temp of my flat which is *usually* above fermentation temperature. In a way this is a design floor, in that the tub obviously isn't well enough insulated, but if I fixed that then I may have to add an aquarium heater too...

 

[Fil]

to avoid damaging a compressor with rapid switching just use a controller with a built in compressor delay for that circuit.

 

[Vossy1]

Hi Vossy, I used to follow you a bit on the other formum took me awhile to find this one as I dip in and out, when I get a chance I do the proper introduction..

Blimey that's going back :grin:

Reading another forum I thought there was issue with using copper in the fv, it's ok pre boil but not for fermenting wort? I would also be worried about infection? Also as batch size is so small would be worried about thermal shocking the yeast?

Basically worts slightly acidic and copper isn't a 'hard' metal. I'm struggling to remember the term for the chiller but forum user Rab Maxwell (on both forums) used to use copper chillers in his fv with no issues.
I tried it once or twice, the acidic wort/beer basically dissolves the oxidised layer, much like an IC going into a copper dull and coming out shiny. The theory is that the yeast will utilise some/any metal/minerals which are dissolved and due to the short time frame we use in the fv it shouldn't really be much of a problem.
I'll try and find the Maxwell chiller, I've already had a look for it but struggled :hmm:

EDIT, here it is....I think that may be 3/4" copper on reflection.
It's something like this. 10mm copper pipe inside 20mm copper pipe. Cold water goes in at the top, then comes up the 20mm pipe and goes to the drain via side arm as heated water :thumb:

 

[prolix]

Hey I built one of those to use with my maxi, never used it in anger though. As I brew in the garage in England there are not many weeks where it is above 18 anyhow. I just brew a lot in April and May and that takes me through 'til september.

During the warmer months I tend to rebuild my brewery :thumb:

 

[evanvine]

Cold water goes in at the top, then comes up the 20mm pipe and goes to the drain via side arm as heated water

?? :wha: It must be me! :shock:

 

[Newtons Shed]

Isn't copper in large doses poisious? Appreciated that yeast will eat some of it up and again in small amount good for the yeast but I have been known ro leave fv sitting around for 3 or 4 weeks and I also plan to do some "big" beers which again have a long time in the FVs?

As I brew in the garage in England there are not many weeks where it is above 18 anyhow. I just brew a lot in April and May and that takes me through 'til september.
This is my though as well I albeit I bew in a (uninsulated/unheated) shed and I am more concerned with it being too cold to ferment then too hot but I'd still like the option to cool if needed as want brew all year round (Not brewed a ag in over 4 yrs since moving house)

I don't understand the need for the maxwell chiller? If I wanted too couldn't I just use an IC ie 10mm nirco bore copper tubing in the fv one end flow out of the maxi chiller and other end going to the inflow of the maxi chiller? Thinking about it whilst it's not as conductive heat transfer I could use silicone tubing inside the fv couldn't I instead of copper?
Whilst I've re measured the fv space that I'm using and it would fit an undercounter fridge or freezer, I like the advantage of being able to control multiple fvs at different temps although it'd be expensive as I guess would need seperate temp conrollers/sensors and either pump or switching device from each product line going into a different coil in each of the fvs/conditioning tanks.

Having said that for ease I might just get an under counter fridge and extend the lenght of it by enclosing it in a wooden insuatled frame, if it's not as efficient to run some copper piping around the inside of the frame like I orginally planned

 

[Fil]

Unless your lagering, i think you might be a lot better off creating a stable temp area for fermentation with lots of insulation.. you may find that without any active heating or cooling when full will maintain a good STABLE temp alone. if not you will know what you need a small amount of heating or a small amount of chilling??..



Afaik maintaining a stable temp (within range) is better than a fluctuating temp (within the same range)attempting to hit an optimum target.


Im basing my opinion on my keg storage experience...
my kegs for serving are kept in an insulated corner of an insulated outhouse which in summer catches full sun, the kegs didnt rise above healthy fermentation temps at all.. 16-18C max throughout the summer months last year.. tho did appreciate the shelf cooler to chill them down for quaffing :)

 

[Vossy1]

I don't understand the need for the maxwell chiller? If I wanted too couldn't I just use an IC ie 10mm nirco bore copper tubing in the fv one end flow out of the maxi chiller and other end going to the inflow of the maxi chiller? Thinking about it whilst it's not as conductive heat transfer I could use silicone tubing inside the fv couldn't I instead of copper?

A 10mm IC would collect yeast and on racking it would leach into your beer, the MW chiller doesn't have those issues. Silicone tubing is not all the same and I wouldn't want to immerse that in acidic solutions (wort) for long periods of time. For the time frame we're talking about I'm not sure there's any need to worry about copper poisoning, but if in doubt don't use it.

EV, probably not the best description I gave. 22mm outer tube, 10mm inner tube going almost to bottom of 22mm tube. Water enters via 10mm tube at top then travels down the 10mm tubing, then up the inside of the 22mm tube and exits to return port of maxi chiller or whatever.
The reason for mentioning running to drain is that you can use this type of chiller with tap water being your chilling supply so no need for a maxi chiller etc....a much cheaper solution to cooling your fv than buying a dedicated chiller

Unless your lagering, i think you might be a lot better off creating a stable temp area for fermentation with lots of insulation.. you may find that without any active heating or cooling when full will maintain a good STABLE temp alone.

There are old posts on this and JBK Fil that show data logged ferments where the fv's are 5-8 deg c over ambient, even controlled ambient at the height of fermentation. It's better to control ambient than nothing, but there are better ways naturally, if you want to go down those routes.

 

[evanvine]

Thanks JP, after the second read through I suddeny twigged what it was all about!
Is the black plastic just for securing?

 

[Vossy1]

Is the black plastic just for securing?

It's a giant cable gland, and yes :thumb: