Open Fermentation.

[Amidared]

I'm interested in hearing people's thoughts on open fermentation and whether or not anyone brews to this method on a regular basis. Its probably too early in my learning curve for me to try it just yet but I'm intrigued by the method, especially after reading that it was the norm almost in earlier days, especially in Yorkshire and still is used in modern days. I was wondering too whether or not a smallish stainless steel Bain Marie could be used for this. I found this clip which explains the basics, no doubt there are many more.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9xT8DHOZFE[/ame]

 

[MyQul]

Coincedently enough I watched that yesterday. I thought I might like to have a go at some point in the future. If I was going to do it I'd cover the FV with muslin or cheesecloth held on with an elastic band To stop fruit flies and anything else getting in.

 

[Amidared]

Coincedently enough I watched that yesterday. I thought I might like to have a go at some point in the future. If I was going to do it I'd cover the FV with muslin or cheesecloth held on with an elastic band To stop fruit flies and anything else getting in.

Its really got me thinking as to whether or not its a route worth going down, just as a part of learning what I'm actually doing and I love weizens too so if this is a method used in Germany for weizen production I might give it a try with the fv first. If it proved to be successful do you think a bain marie would be suitable for a home brewer? Something like this

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-1-Size-...hash=item3f2049b8de:m:mrxjrfe-4dEibMN51YcEczg

 

[MyQul]

Possiblly but quite expensive. If you could find a food grade version of this
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5-x-28L-Underbed-Clear-Plastic-Clear-Storage-Box-With-Black-Lid/401135401575?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D38661%26meid%3D29a391e1762e44d5ac3a015af5d57721%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D231989030736
It would be a lot cheaper.
In the video they just use a normall FV which seems to work

 

[geetee]

Possiblly but quite expensive. If you could find a food grade version of this
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5-x-28L-Underbed-Clear-Plastic-Clear-Storage-Box-With-Black-Lid/401135401575?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D38661%26meid%3D29a391e1762e44d5ac3a015af5d57721%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D231989030736
It would be a lot cheaper.
In the video they just use a normall FV which seems to work

You are right any vessel will work. I usually put a lid on my fermenter but loosely laid on the top and often open it to see what is occuring. CO2 is heavier than air so sits on the top of the vessel and will not drift away.

They still use open Yorkshire squares in Black Sheep and Theakstons brewery

 

[Amidared]

Possiblly but quite expensive. If you could find a food grade version of this
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5-x-28L-Underbed-Clear-Plastic-Clear-Storage-Box-With-Black-Lid/401135401575?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D38661%26meid%3D29a391e1762e44d5ac3a015af5d57721%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D231989030736
It would be a lot cheaper.
In the video they just use a normall FV which seems to work

Yeah it is a bit dear, was just a thought. I'm pretty space restricted as it is and am getting carried away just with the idea. FV seems the right way to go until I know what I'm doing. Worth looking into though, that open fermenting method. Would have to be an option for the winter for me though.

 

[Sadfield]

Would be interesting to spilt fermentation between two vessels, one open, one closed.

Sent from my LG-H815 using Tapatalk

 

[Pfeffer]

It would certainly go a lot faster, but the risk of pathogens is quite significant. Atleast make sure nothing can fall into the FV. For example dust, hairs, gnats and unicorns as these can potentially ruin the brew. Personally I'd drape a microfilter bag over it to prevent dust/pathogens coming in. You can tape it on with some micropore.

Aren't traditional lambics also openly fermented?

 

[Amidared]

Would be interesting to spilt fermentation between two vessels, one open, one closed.

Sent from my LG-H815 using Tapatalk

Good idea, less loss too if the open doesn't go as planned.

It would certainly go a lot faster, but the risk of pathogens is quite significant. Atleast make sure nothing can fall into the FV. For example dust, hairs, gnats and unicorns as these can potentially ruin the brew. Personally I'd drape a microfilter bag over it to prevent dust/pathogens coming in. You can tape it on with some micropore.

Aren't traditional lambics also openly fermented?

Lambics use wild yeast yeah, quite a few do according to what I've read this morning. Bavarian Weizens surprisingly, strange because I was in the Weihenstephen brewery in Freising years ago (90's) and dont remember any open fermenting squares.

 

[MyQul]

Just to point out for anyone that cant be bothered to watch the youtube vid. The main advantage of open fermentation seems to be primarily a huge boost in ester production. So good for ester driven beers like hefweizens and Bitters

 

[Personal91]

Possiblly but quite expensive. If you could find a food grade version of this
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5-x-28L-Underbed-Clear-Plastic-Clear-Storage-Box-With-Black-Lid/401135401575?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D38661%26meid%3D29a391e1762e44d5ac3a015af5d57721%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D231989030736
It would be a lot cheaper.
In the video they just use a normall FV which seems to work

Just had a look - it says that it's food grade in description of the product

 

[geetee]

If I were to do an open fermentation I would go for one with less surface area. their fishgutter vessel was long but not very deep. This may expose more of the surface and requires the yeast to cover the whole surface area to a thickness that forms adequate protection by giving off CO2. Once fermenting slows or stops I would worry about the protection remaining in place and would have to rack fairly quickly.
A smaller surface area with sufficent depth may concentrate the yeast and maintain a thicker blanket of CO2 particularly when fermenting has ceased.

 

[Pfeffer]

Bavarian Weizens surprisingly, strange because I was in the Weihenstephen brewery in Freising years ago (90's) and dont remember any open fermenting squares.

You don't need to do an open fermentation to use wild yeast. You can simply culture the strains of wild yeast you want to use. I really can't imagine that a >200.000 hectoliter brewery would leave their productions figures up to "luck".

For lambics as well; I strongly suspect that they control of much of the process as they can and do tricks with the pH to prevent pathogene bacteria to keep hold (most fungi prefer a slightly acidic environment where quite a lot of bacterial pathogens prefer a more neutral environment).

@Geetee the whole idea is as much surface area as possible. And protection by CO2 is a myth. It's not the CO2 blanket that keeps out pathogens, it's the overpressure in a closed vessel. The wort contains more than sufficient oxygen for aerobe microorganisms to use. Else yeast would die off too, in other words - in this situation the co2 won't be of much use. It might be heavier then oxygen, but it mixes well (especially if it's left open like this) so don't rely on it to keep pathogens out.

 

[Amidared]

You don't need to do an open fermentation to use wild yeast. You can simply culture the strains of wild yeast you want to use. I really can't imagine that a >200.000 hectoliter brewery would leave their productions figures up to "luck".

For lambics as well; I strongly suspect that they control of much of the process as they can and do tricks with the pH to prevent pathogene bacteria to keep hold (most fungi prefer a slightly acidic environment where quite a lot of bacterial pathogens prefer a more neutral environment)..

What I meant was I don't remember seeing anything like this.

 

[Pfeffer]

I understood I meant more, Weihenstephaner is far more than a crafts brewery, they can't risk that with such a commercial stake. All the contaminations in a lambic that give it it's characterstic flavors (that depend per batch) are not acceptable in a hefeweizen. I guess they worked out which of the strains they want in their brew and cultured from there.

 

[Amidared]

I understood I meant more, Weihenstephaner is far more than a crafts brewery, they can't risk that with such a commercial stake. All the contaminations in a lambic that give it it's characterstic flavors (that depend per batch) are not acceptable in a hefeweizen. I guess they worked out which of the strains they want in their brew and cultured from there.

Yeah I get what you're saying regarding continuity and controlling the production but the big companies apparently have been doing open fermentation for years. I'm not saying they would leave it to chance just that they DO use open fermentation. I know you're saying they don't HAVE to use open fermentation to use wild yeast and that they can culture the wild yeast to maintain product stability.

 

[HebridesRob]

I understood I meant more, Weihenstephaner is far more than a crafts brewery, they can't risk that with such a commercial stake. All the contaminations in a lambic that give it it's characterstic flavors (that depend per batch) are not acceptable in a hefeweizen. I guess they worked out which of the strains they want in their brew and cultured from there.

I think the point with lambic beers is that they are brewed in a building where the beer has been made for a long time. The environment is full of the organisms that the brewers want to use.
Leaving the beer open to allow yeast and bacteria in the environment to inoculate by chance wouldn't work in a homebrew situation unless you did it in a cellar or something which you took time to prepare first. I bet there are people that have done that though.
Years ago there was an Amateur Winemaker article on homebrewing with a jerry-rigged Yorkshire square. I tried it in the airing cupboard, it worked kind of OK but was too much like hard work.

 

[strange-steve]

You don't need to do an open fermentation to use wild yeast. You can simply culture the strains of wild yeast you want to use. I really can't imagine that a >200.000 hectoliter brewery would leave their productions figures up to "luck".

For lambics as well; I strongly suspect that they control of much of the process as they can and do tricks with the pH to prevent pathogene bacteria to keep hold (most fungi prefer a slightly acidic environment where quite a lot of bacterial pathogens prefer a more neutral environment).

I visited the Cantillon lambic brewery in Brussels last year and it was quite fascinating. After the boil the wort is pumped into a coolship which is basically a huge shallow, open stainless steel tray located in the attic. They then simply leave it to ferment with the natural wild yeast and bacteria found in the building, there are even open windows all around the coolship. They use 3 year old hops which no longer have any bittering ability but they still have preservative qualities. All their cleaning is done with hot water only so as not to upset the house yeast blend which covers the interior of the building.

 

[MyQul]

I visited the Cantillon lambic brewery in Brussels last year and it was quite fascinating. After the boil the wort is pumped into a coolship which is basically a huge shallow, open stainless steel tray located in the attic. They then simply leave it to ferment with the natural wild yeast and bacteria found in the building, there are even open windows all around the coolship. They use 3 year old hops which no longer have any bittering ability but they still have preservative qualities. All their cleaning is done with hot water only so as not to upset the house yeast blend which covers the interior of the building.

The OP linked a vid about open fermentation by Brewing TV. They also have a vid on cool ships. The method in the vid to capture wild yeast is similar to what you describe at the Cantillon brewery

 

[Sadfield]

Rousing an old thread to see if there is any sign of activity.

I'm planning to brew a Best Bitter using an open fermentation and wondered if anyone has tried this technique. The local Poundstretcher sell 30 litre foodgrade (PP) storage boxes for replicating a Yorkshire Square. I haven't decide on which yeast strain to use yet, so any suggestions on a good top cropping strain would be welcome.