Hello brewers, I have a small problem in my Turbo Cider making. I brew Aldi apple juice and add 20 heads /sprigs of elder flower for flavour to my 5 gallon brew which I forage each year and freeze. This makes a very nice tasting cider especially after leaving a couple of month or more. The problem I have is the high alcoholic strength. I ferment my brew without adding sugar. Using only the natural sugars found in the apple juice. Even so there is a high alcohol finish. I was thinking if I used less yeast this would end up with less alcohol. This would be good only thing is how I condition it. Knowing that there would be sugars still in the brew, leaving only yeast for natural conditioning. Does anybody know how much yeast would be good for this. I am afraid of making cider bombs. I imagine making some kind of yeast starter. Normally I use medium sweet yeast which i buy from Bouyes which creates a nice sweetness. If I used half the yeast in the initial fermentation and using a fraction of the remaining yeast for conditioning. Has anyone had any experience using yeast for conditioning instead of extra sugar? At present I enjoy 3 or 4 pints and feel I have had 8 pints. I would like to drink a few more on a Friday night without making myself bad. If I could accomplish this I would use a dry yeast using the remaining apple sugars for flavour. Any ideas on how much yeast to use for this.Thanks for your time. Ian ;-)
Conditioning with yeast??
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If you dropped a single grain of dried yeast into the cider it would eventually do one of two things:
1. Replicate itself as it consumed all of the sugar as it turned it into alcohol to produce a dry cider.
2. Replicate itself as it consumed enough of the sugar to produce sufficient alcohol to effectively kill itself and thereby produce a sweet high alcohol cider.
No 1 Son likes a sweet low alcohol cider so I stopped a brew with Wilco Stabiliser, added more apple juice to increase the sweetness, transferred it into a King Keg and then carbonated the brew with CO2 capsules.
It worked fine so you could probably do the same. :thumb:
Here's the Thread:
http://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=66710
1. Replicate itself as it consumed all of the sugar as it turned it into alcohol to produce a dry cider.
2. Replicate itself as it consumed enough of the sugar to produce sufficient alcohol to effectively kill itself and thereby produce a sweet high alcohol cider.
No 1 Son likes a sweet low alcohol cider so I stopped a brew with Wilco Stabiliser, added more apple juice to increase the sweetness, transferred it into a King Keg and then carbonated the brew with CO2 capsules.
It worked fine so you could probably do the same. :thumb:
Here's the Thread:
http://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=66710
Sorry for they delay. I have been watching Ant & Dec with my girls, thank you very much for the reply. So basically the yeast will continue working until it reaches its ultimate alcohol level. Which in my case will be too strong and too fizzy. My idea is a none goer using yeast for conditioning.? I am now considering using malic acid again to carbonate?. I used this a few years ago and made cider which I couldn't open, it just erupted out of the bottle in a stream of foam.?? I don't know.???
I'm not sure that you have the fermentation and carbonation processes properly understood at the moment. Whilst they are both the same process (i.e. changing sugar to alcohol and CO2 by means of fermentation with yeast) they are used for totally different purposes.
If you bottle a fermenting brew (be it wine, beer or cider) before the fermentation process is completed (or stopped) you stand an excellent chance of producing either a bottle that will explode (with potentially devastating results) or one that will erupt when opened.
Equally, after fermentation is completed, the bottling of the brew (again be it wine, beer or cider) needs to be controlled to avoid the same potentially dangerous situation arising.
I have often seen Malic Acid used in wine making to introduce a tartness and speed up fermentation in a wine, but I have never seen it used for carbonation. It occurs naturally in apples so I'm not quite sure what you would expect from using it.
With regard to "too strong" your cider can be stopped at any time with a Stabiliser but as it kills off the yeast it will then need "forced carbonation" in a keg of some sort to make it a sparkling cider.
Hope this helps. :thumb:
If you bottle a fermenting brew (be it wine, beer or cider) before the fermentation process is completed (or stopped) you stand an excellent chance of producing either a bottle that will explode (with potentially devastating results) or one that will erupt when opened.
Equally, after fermentation is completed, the bottling of the brew (again be it wine, beer or cider) needs to be controlled to avoid the same potentially dangerous situation arising.
I have often seen Malic Acid used in wine making to introduce a tartness and speed up fermentation in a wine, but I have never seen it used for carbonation. It occurs naturally in apples so I'm not quite sure what you would expect from using it.
With regard to "too strong" your cider can be stopped at any time with a Stabiliser but as it kills off the yeast it will then need "forced carbonation" in a keg of some sort to make it a sparkling cider.
Hope this helps. :thumb:
Tau
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I used 1/2 a tsp of malic acid in a batch of turbo cider and it did carb' a little a tsp per gallon would produce more co2 if secondary fermentation from malic acid to lactic acid occurs, so no sulphination no camdens (definately no potassium sorbate) to be used in such a batch if you want a quick drink within a month or so.
Thanks folks for your replies. i have been making my T.C for a while now.
I ferment the apple juice until it stops fermenting. Then add 60grams of sugar before I bottle. This ferments again in the bottle just enough to carbonate. I have no control of the alcohol level. I was just wondering if I used less yeast in the original fermentation creating less alcohol.? Then add a bit more before I bottle thus carbonating in the bottle. I was also wondering if anybody has managed to do this. I am now thinking again my idea would might work with trial an error. but not leave it to long. before drinking to avoid bottle bombs. ?
I ferment the apple juice until it stops fermenting. Then add 60grams of sugar before I bottle. This ferments again in the bottle just enough to carbonate. I have no control of the alcohol level. I was just wondering if I used less yeast in the original fermentation creating less alcohol.? Then add a bit more before I bottle thus carbonating in the bottle. I was also wondering if anybody has managed to do this. I am now thinking again my idea would might work with trial an error. but not leave it to long. before drinking to avoid bottle bombs. ?
The problem with "trial and error" is that sometimes the "error" side can be very unforgiving!
How about bottling the cider in corked bottles and putting them somewhere nice and remote until you get it right? That way, any over carbonation would just blow the corks out and produce a fountain of cider!
Secondary fermentation using Malic Acid is used in the production of champagne so it can be done. Maybe the price of champagne is so that the producers can recover some of the money they spent on the "errors"! :lol: :lol: :lol:
Good luck with the experiments! :thumb:
cheapbrew
Junk and disorderly
If the alcohol content is too high just reduce the amount of apple juice.
Er ... you will still get the same ABV. :thumb:
Thanks folks for all your replies and taking interest in my crazy plan. I now know that this idea of conditioning with yeast is never going to be trust worthy idea. Thinking about a less resilient yeast. This is also rises doubts when thinking about it. Leaving me with problem of calculating when to bottle just as the yeast is about to die. In the long run it may be best looking at artificial carbonation.? Or continue to enjoy drinking my high alcohol cider or park bench cider as it has been referred to in the past. :-)
Tau
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What do you consider high alchohol? Not sure on the sugar content in the aldi apple juice, but first off you could post the content, read the side of carton per 100ml. I would assume around 95-100g per litre which would give an sg between 1.035-1.040 which would produce an abv of 4.59% at 1.035 finishing at an fg of 1.000, at 0.990 it will be a lot stronger at 5.91% which might be happening. What yeast are you using?
Hi Tau, Let me apologise for the late reply. I am working in Reading a fair distance from Middlesbrough where I live, Traveled down yesterday straight to work this morning and now at my digs.
I would consider my cider quite strong having 4 pints and feel I have had 6 or 7 pints, nearly twice as strong as regular bought cider.
However I have never tested the alcoholic value. I use a medium sweet yeast I buy from Boyes. it is a 10g medium packet made by Bulldog Brews. ?? When I get back home I will test it as I brew. Have got 5 gallon from Aldi apple juice ready to start. Thanks for your reply.
I would consider my cider quite strong having 4 pints and feel I have had 6 or 7 pints, nearly twice as strong as regular bought cider.
However I have never tested the alcoholic value. I use a medium sweet yeast I buy from Boyes. it is a 10g medium packet made by Bulldog Brews. ?? When I get back home I will test it as I brew. Have got 5 gallon from Aldi apple juice ready to start. Thanks for your reply.
cheapbrew
Junk and disorderly
Originally Posted by cheapbrew
If the alcohol content is too high just reduce the amount of apple juice.
I should have written........
If the alcohol content is too high just reduce the amount of apple juice and replace with water. :thumb:
If the alcohol content is too high just reduce the amount of apple juice.
I should have written........
If the alcohol content is too high just reduce the amount of apple juice and replace with water. :thumb:
Thanks for reply cheapbrew
Maybe this is the answer, Adding water.
Aldi juice is quite tasty so a bit of water wont harm. I was thinking of adding more elder flower
to cover the taste loss with the water added. So this week end I will calculate how much to use.
Thanks for that you have my mind ticking now. Will do some sums.
Maybe this is the answer, Adding water.
Aldi juice is quite tasty so a bit of water wont harm. I was thinking of adding more elder flower
to cover the taste loss with the water added. So this week end I will calculate how much to use.
Thanks for that you have my mind ticking now. Will do some sums.
Hi brewers just to keep you in the picture. My latest recipe, 1 gallon of water boiled to extract flavour from 2 x 20 heads of Elder flower.
I gather the flowers in spring and freeze in packet of 20 Heads of flower.
19 litres of Aldi Apple Juice the total was about 24 litres.
Added 4 spoons of yeast nutrient that's all I had left.
1 packet of Boyes medium sweat cider yeast. Made by Bulldog
The SP. Gr. came out 1033 1032?? The medium sweetness might bring out some lost flavour with the added water.
Will see. Happy brewing :)
I gather the flowers in spring and freeze in packet of 20 Heads of flower.
19 litres of Aldi Apple Juice the total was about 24 litres.
Added 4 spoons of yeast nutrient that's all I had left.
1 packet of Boyes medium sweat cider yeast. Made by Bulldog
The SP. Gr. came out 1033 1032?? The medium sweetness might bring out some lost flavour with the added water.
Will see. Happy brewing :)
tonyhibbett
Landlord.
Malic acid is not used in the production of Champagne. The only occasion when adding malic acid creates a sparkle is when a malolactic fermentation has taken place, all of the malic acid has been converted to lactic acid and the bacteria which cause it are still active.
Er ... not according to ...
http://www.winealchemy.co.uk/champagne-styles/
... or ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acids_in_wine
... or even ...
http://agris.fao.org/agris-search/search.do?recordID=US201302295588
:whistle: :whistle:
Good evening brewers. the first recipe I used a few years ago included the use of malic acid. This I believe
was used to create more of a tart taste that apples have. During the Malolactic fermentation it creates
carbon dioxide, thus thinking it would carbonate in the bottles. When I used this recipe I created fizz bombs in 2 litre plastic bottles. Was advised to let this process work for 3 month or more. Thinking now I must of bottled to early before it had finished its initial fermentation. This recipe included the park bench cider by adding more sugar. :)
was used to create more of a tart taste that apples have. During the Malolactic fermentation it creates
carbon dioxide, thus thinking it would carbonate in the bottles. When I used this recipe I created fizz bombs in 2 litre plastic bottles. Was advised to let this process work for 3 month or more. Thinking now I must of bottled to early before it had finished its initial fermentation. This recipe included the park bench cider by adding more sugar. :)
tonyhibbett
Landlord.
Malic acid is in all grape juice, along with tartaric acid. It is never added. If the juice is too low in acid on account of being over ripe, tartaric acid is added. Apple juice contains only malic acid.
Thanks Tony...., for your sharing your knowledge. I want to make some TC with a 4 or 5% vol only and carbonated which is not proving to be easy. I use cider yeast only for addition of sweetness or medium sweetness in my preference. So really I'm after a medium yeast with a lower alcohol resilience. mmhhhhh ?? :thumb:
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