evanvine
Landlord.
I like your thinking CA. :thumb:cornyandy said:
Imperial
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Eradite
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alikocho said:Eradite said:The word comes from Russian Imperial Stouts brewed in the UK (In the 1800's)for export to Russia (a favourite of Catherine the second) i.e. brewed for the Imperial court.
These stouts were much higher in ABV than a average beer, more than 10% :
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Russian Imperial Stout was brewed for export to Russia. Despite what the Courage label used to say (and the d'coq one) Catherine the Great never drank them. The first RIS sent to Russia was Barclay Perkins Brown Stout in 1832. Catherine the Great died in 1796. The reasons for the strength was twofold. Firstly it needed to keep, so was brewed strong and heavily hopped. Secondly, the high alcohol content ensured that the beer wouldn't freeze enroute to Russia via the Baltic Sea. When Russia introduced a prohibitive tariff on top-fermented imported ales, the trade dried up but was then quickly replaced with an export porter trade (using bottom-fermenting yeast), which also saw the establishment of British brewing concerns in the Baltic states. Hence, we have Baltic Porter, which is occasionally (and erroneously) referred to as Imperial Porter.
And the misnomer for Baltic Porter as Imperial Porter leads us to 'Imperial' as a catch all. It's worth noting that Gordon Strong, who chaired the writing of the BJCP 2008 Guidelines now says that he would call an Imperial IPA a Double IPA to correct this misnaming.
I agree with what you are saying, and I am not a beer historian, I am though refering to the below quote
In 1796 Thraleâs supplied porter "that would keep seven years" to the Empress of Russia. The author of The History and Antiquities of the Parish of St. Saviour, Southwark, said of Thraleâs beer at that time:
The reputation and enjoyment of Porter is by no means confined to England. As proof of the truth of this assertion, this house exports annually very large quantities; so far extended are its commercial connections that Thraleâs Entire1 is well known, as a delicious beverage, from the frozen regions of Russia to the burning sands of Bengal and Sumatra. The Empress of All Russia is indeed so partial to Porter that she has ordered repeatedly very large quantities for her own drinking and that of her court.
Barclay Perkins bought the Thrale's brewery in 1781, although it still operated useing the original name for some time.
I guess that the above could be false but it's used by quite a lot of beer writters (including Protz), (which does not mean that it's true). Apparently there's a lot of legends surounding Catherine the great including her death! http://europeanhistory.about.com/od/cat ... myths1.htm
alikocho
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Eradite said:alikocho said:Eradite said:The word comes from Russian Imperial Stouts brewed in the UK (In the 1800's)for export to Russia (a favourite of Catherine the second) i.e. brewed for the Imperial court.
These stouts were much higher in ABV than a average beer, more than 10% :
Russian Imperial Stout was brewed for export to Russia. Despite what the Courage label used to say (and the d'coq one) Catherine the Great never drank them. The first RIS sent to Russia was Barclay Perkins Brown Stout in 1832. Catherine the Great died in 1796. The reasons for the strength was twofold. Firstly it needed to keep, so was brewed strong and heavily hopped. Secondly, the high alcohol content ensured that the beer wouldn't freeze enroute to Russia via the Baltic Sea. When Russia introduced a prohibitive tariff on top-fermented imported ales, the trade dried up but was then quickly replaced with an export porter trade (using bottom-fermenting yeast), which also saw the establishment of British brewing concerns in the Baltic states. Hence, we have Baltic Porter, which is occasionally (and erroneously) referred to as Imperial Porter.
And the misnomer for Baltic Porter as Imperial Porter leads us to 'Imperial' as a catch all. It's worth noting that Gordon Strong, who chaired the writing of the BJCP 2008 Guidelines now says that he would call an Imperial IPA a Double IPA to correct this misnaming.
I agree with what you are saying, and I am not a beer historian, I am though refering to the below quote
In 1796 Thraleâs supplied porter "that would keep seven years" to the Empress of Russia. The author of The History and Antiquities of the Parish of St. Saviour, Southwark, said of Thraleâs beer at that time:
The reputation and enjoyment of Porter is by no means confined to England. As proof of the truth of this assertion, this house exports annually very large quantities; so far extended are its commercial connections that Thraleâs Entire1 is well known, as a delicious beverage, from the frozen regions of Russia to the burning sands of Bengal and Sumatra. The Empress of All Russia is indeed so partial to Porter that she has ordered repeatedly very large quantities for her own drinking and that of her court.
Barclay Perkins bought the Thrale's brewery in 1781, although it still operated useing the original name for some time.
I guess that the above could be false but it's used by quite a lot of beer writters (including Protz), (which does not mean that it's true). Apparently there's a lot of legends surounding Catherine the great including her death! http://europeanhistory.about.com/od/cat ... myths1.htm
I'll look into this. I have a copy of the import accounts for the Russian Empire somewhere.
Che Banana
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I think a label like that would refer to it being drunk in the empire, and not to any change in it's strength. Although old milds were pretty punchy anyway.
alikocho
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[Che Banana said:
Based on? And which Empire would that be referring to?
This suggests that the Imperial tag meaning 'the strongest we do' has been around for a long time -http://zythophile.wordpress.com/2011/06/26/imperial-stout-â-russian-or-irish/
Che Banana
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Well based on nothing really but the date that that I presume that ale was produced. Which could be post first world war to maybe post second world war. Possibly during periods of rationing. I would have thought that by then milds were close to milds as they are today. Which makes producing an imperial(strong) mild odd to me. The use of the word imperial during war periods may have been a good selling point too.
But without an abv, a gravity or a being able to talk to someone from bank's or to someone who has drunk it could be either.
All guess work. Probably all rubbish. Happy to be proved completely wrong.
But without an abv, a gravity or a being able to talk to someone from bank's or to someone who has drunk it could be either.
All guess work. Probably all rubbish. Happy to be proved completely wrong.
Che Banana
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Fair one, that's a tad over what I would expect for a mild!
How did you get the info so quickly?
How did you get the info so quickly?
Very . . . Would like access to the brewing ledgers to see if we can create modern interpretations of the old beers . . .Not many Banks' beers in the Durden Park book.Eradite said:
I promise to treat them with respect :pray: :pray: :pray:
