questions about a stripped down keg setup

[Phenz]

hi,

I'm very new.

I've got my first batch of homebrew bubbling away in the corner and i'm looking at the next steps.

From what i've been told and everything i read, kegging is the way to go. so i've decided to try and piece together a 'keggerator' for as cheap as possible.

i've done quite a bit of research and have lots of questions, or assumptions at least.

natually the endgame is to have a lovely piece of furniture that is the centrepiece of any room its in, draws the eye and entices even the dryest to try it out and pour themselves a pint. but for a hobby/way of life... i've just started, and the research i've done, i can get the equipment and build it inside a fridge, and from there, work on the construction project and justify the cost of turning something purely practical into something of joy and wonder... at a later date.

really just looking for some pointers and tips on what i need as the bare minimum to force carbonate a keg and pour a cold pint on demand.

... and also people to correct me when i'm wrong. I haven't laid my hands on any of this equipment yet so this is purely a hypothetical excercise until i know it can be done and the bank card comes out.

budget £100.

i have a spare small fridge that i know will fit at least 1 keg (prob 2) and a co2 unit.

I'll need a corny keg which i can pick up refurbed for about £40 delivered.

i need advice on co2. i've found a local fire safety depot that will fill co2 for £5. which seems reasonable, but i still need to get hands on a co2 cannister. i'm open to ideas where i can get my hands on one or cheap deals. if it makes a difference i'm in the glasgow area. i'm heavily researching this at the moment before moving on as this step seems ridiculously expensive to buy outright the moment.

what i'm a little hazy on at the is the interconnects and tap configuration that i'll need to connect the two.

from my understanding i'll need;

regulator for the co2 unit.
there are what are called dual regulators, which i understand monitor the pressure of the gas cylinder (so you know when its empty) and that of the secondary vessel (corny). i don't know if there are cheaper options that will do the same job. if i intend to add more cornys as i go will a 'splitter' suffice or should i daisy chain regulators, which seems much more expensive but i know people have done it and i realise there is the advantage of being able to force carbonate individual kegs, but if i want to force carbonate a keg, i'm not going to be drinking beer whilst i do it so i can just shut off the other valves in the splitter... right?
can i just mount the regulator straight onto the co2 bottle or do i need a bunch of connectors?

interconnects:
are all cornys the same, as in same threads and specifications, i really don't know what i need for this step. or really any of the steps beyond what this site says
http://www.themaltmiller.co.uk/index.php?_a=viewCat&catId=44
but will these work for my corny keg? hop and grape seems to have them cheaper but seems like a 'convenience' price, so maybe i can find them even cheaper?

tap.
just planing on a party tap... and a significant length of hose to try and deal with frothy problems that i've read about.


so anyhoo, a breakdown...

fridge - free...ish (got one already that's currently used as a beer fridge)

corny - £40

co2 regulator
http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00GAXB3HU/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
will this work £21.50

interconnects for gas in
https://www.hopandgrape.co.uk/beer/...quick-disconnects-co2-grey-for-cornelius.html
which connection fitting to i need? budget £10 max

thumb tap or party tap
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Budget-Fl...-Homebrew-Home-Brew-Beer-Making-/181670395467
with interconnect, will this work? £11.12

co2 cannister
i'm pretty sure i can rent one for about £2 a month, but i'm probably wrong, so call it £10 for co2 full and ready to use. i think this is ambitious but open to suggestions. worst comes to worst i'll steal one from work and switch it when its empty. still i'd rather a small one that will fit in the fridge rather than a...3ft or 1m tall one to sit outside... like the ones i can 'borrow' easily. a small one works with my end game.

and beer line
long for my 'possible need to regulate foam' with my picnic tap but say 4 metres, never have too much beer line... right...to chop and run...at 75p a meter from hop and grape.
£3.00

all in... £95.62 for the first month for the first month atleast and then i'll know where/if/when i want to spend money.

i'm not scared of spending money so if i can make my life ultimately easier for a little more expense, or tips on spending money now to save later then i'm interested. really just don't want to get burned on the wrong purchase.

please tell me where i'm gong wrong and if this will work. i am quick study and appreciate all feedback given.

look forward to hearing from you


first time post, really hope to become a member of the community. Can't wait until i have a time, and the experience to contribute.

 

[ManseMasher]

For your co2 cylinder - can you get your hands on a fire extinguisher? Your local fire safety depot might be able to help you out, and it should be small enough to fit inside.

For the regulator - make sure the valves measure and can regulate pressure, not flow rate (marked in bar/psi, not lpm/cfh)

For your corny you will need gas in and beer out connectors, like the ones in your links. The tap you are thinking of would be a pig to mount to/through your fridge door, unless you are considering keeping it inside and opening the door everytime you want to pour a pint (which could play havoc with your temperatures).

What size beer line? 3/8" is common - make sure the connectors and fittings are the right size.

For your connectors, line etc. google John Guest fittings. You should be able to get adapters that will let you do two kegs from one regulator.

Good luck and let us know how you get on!

 

[Phenz]

thanks for the advice,

hadn't heard of going the fire extinguisher route but i'll give my local depot a call and find out.

for the regulator found this
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Co2-Pub-G...o-Gauge-Single-Stage-Side-Entry-/161673802469
emailed the sales team the questions about flow and regarding a fire extinguisher, probably get a standard email back saying they can't guarantee any design other than 'fit for purpose in welding', but i may be surprised.

i was just going to keep it in the fridge and open the door when needed, i can probably drill a small hole and feed the line though it, or just have it caught in the door seal. i've seen the prices of beer taps can get quite expensive and i really don't want to buy anything that i'll have to throw away if i up scale in the future.

...also as soon as i start looking at taps, i start getting delusions of grandeur and get carried away in complexity and price. A time may come for that step but its not today and i have to constantly reign myself in.

watched a john guest fitting video and now i understand. so i'll get both interconnects with john guest fittings, gas in // beer out and a cheap party tap.

its 3/8 line that i'll be getting and i'll get a good length, as it can always be re purposed.

 

[simon12]

Don't get that regulator the output only measures CFM & LPM ie flow rate not pressure.

 

[Phenz]

I'm still a little unsure on which regulator is the cheapest/best. as this is something that I'll hang on to when/if i upscale then I don't mind spending a bit of money getting the best tool for the job... as long as its not massively more expensive.

http://www.brewuk.co.uk/containers/kegs/cornelius/co2-regulator.html

is what i've found, seems to be the only one which states that both dials are in psi/bar. but the reviews say the scales are so extreme that its not great operating at the low scale.

anyone bought a regulator recently that they would recommend?

 

[Fil]

you may want to check out eco kegs and poly kegs both are basically 30l pet bottles the polykegs are just that 30l versions of pop bottles while the eco kegs are a bit more sophisticated encapsulating the pet bottle within a durable plastic protective shell they work with the industry standard keg couplers you find attached to every keg in a pub or bar. ebay for eco kegs @ circa £25 delivered New.. poly kegs turn up 2nd use now and again @ about a tenner each but require someone to buy a batch 2nd hand clean em and distribute so dont hold your breath..

for regulators the bog standard welders regs work well with cornys BUt if you go the polykeg/ecokeg route you will want to consider either a reg with a PRV or keg couplers with prv's fitted as venting your kegs is a regular part of home brew kegging.. cornies win with their built in prv to vent off excess air and co2.
the granularity of the output guage may be a problem but if so an extra £15 will buy u a ebay guage with 2psi increments on its scale and the fittings to pop it inline after the regulator for the fine tuning of pressures. probaly less than £15 but ??

imho when it comes to co2 dont faf about with fire extinguishers or privatly owned bottles AND avoid monthly pay contracts like the plauge with only a single keg a 6.5kg bottle of co2 costing upto £25 per refill should last you 2 years plus depending on where you get the bottle you may need to pay a deposit on the bottle but if you stop brewing serving you take the bottle back and get the deposit back.. Andover patio centre will give u a bottle of co2 without a deposit for the refil cost alone If you own the bottle the you are responsible for its regular safety checking and servicing, and any bottle you can buy cheap wont have much life left in it and if outside its certified period no one will fill it for you so u can end up lumbered..

for the serving of the beer you will need some way to balance off the keg pressure before the tap release point. try pouring beer from a tap without any pressure restriction of the keg pressure and it can get very messy. the easiest way to balance off the keg pressure is thin 3/16" micro line generally a length of 5-6ft (upto 2m) of micro line between the keg and tap is sufficient, the idea is to have a nominal pressure drop at the tap, this will avoid pouring pints of foam....

It can be an uphill struggle setting up a home keg system But it is do-able and once set up especially with a keg fridge to maintain a constant keg temp It is SO worth it as you will then be pouring consistent pint after pint..

one keg is not enough 2-3 perhaps


your fridge will need a controller the stc1000 is the usual choice @ circa £10 its a bargain, and a small pipe heater too may be necessary depending on where the fridge will sit and the styles of beer you want to serve

bookmark this for reference on keg pressures for beer styles..https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&r...=xbA22cKg6g1riDhoRe225w&bvm=bv.58187178,d.ZG4

 

[Phenz]

thanks for the advice. i had a crisis of confidence in cornys and ventured into research of other vessels but at the end of the day i've been able to find more information on cornys than any other form of kegging so i know i'll always be able to find a solution to any problem i face - and its tried and tested and i won't get burned.

I went to the fire safety warehouse and told them i needed co2, and they had regular co2 bottles that they were willing to part with cash in hand. £30 for a full, standard size bottle, £8 for the refill when needed, but that shouldn't be any time soon.

as its a fridge i'm using rather than a freezer, will i need a stc-1000? and i've never heard of a pipe heater...

i've got all the bits and pieces i need to get this project started... i think. It was really hard to go shopping and not buy the extra bits and pieces i wanted, rather than needed.

so i've got;
co2 full
jg fitting for gas out of the regulator
2m of 3/8 gas line
2m of 3/8 beer line
10m of 3/16 beer line
3/8 - 3/16 jg coupler
party tap
corny connectors (pair)
1/4 thread to 3/8 jg (pair)
new set of seals for corny
corny keg

just need to make a decision about the regulator and then i'm set. going to do it before i go to sleep... and its now 4am.

 

[ManseMasher]

Good job on the co2 bottle! Fire extinguishers, imho, aren't a faf but you got a good deal there. To answer your question (which was about the regulator), I read some of the reviews on the regulator you posted. From what I can see the output pressure gauge is fine (although you will only need the bottom portion of it - I don't think you'll ever be putting 90 psi in!) it's the cylinder pressure gauge that has been commented on in that you have to keep an eye on it because of the gradings (at least that's what the reviews say). BrewUK are a good bunch - give them a call and ask about it. There is a guy on ebay called normannumpa (I think) who quite often sells regs etc but he has nothing up at the moment. I would have a go with BrewUK - I'm looking for one myself at the moment and am thinking about that one too....

My fridge is stc controlled, that way I can condition in the warm and at cooler temperatures. A pipe heater is what people use in greenhouses etc. There are other ways of providing heat of course, and cheaper. Plenty of info around on lightbulbs in tins and so on.

 

[Phenz]

Do I really need an stc1000 and a heater? Won't my fridge do a reasonable job of controlling the temperature on its own?

I thought that that sort of setup was only needed for a freezer conversion.

As I'm just dipping my toe in the water is this a necessary step? Naturally I expect to have perfectly poured pints but I know there will be a lot of tweaking at first how sensitive are full kegs to subtle temp changes?

 

[Fil]

imho Yes a temperature controller that you can set a specific target temperature on is crucial, as for the tube heater that depends on where the keg fridge sits, And the styles of beer your going to serve. for example a british bitter will be best served at 11-13C (cellar temps) so if your keg fridge sits inside a warm house above 11C all the time then a heater would be redundant, but if its in a shed/garage in which the ambient temp could drop well below that level then a heater would be needed to maintain the serving temp..

because the condition of the beer is wholey dependent on the pressure And temperature its maintained at without knowing what the temperature is (via a controller) you cant determine what pressure to set for the target condition level.

check out the carb table linked to above..

my kegs sit at an ambient temp which involves a lot more input from me to manage the gas pressure in a reactive manner the advantage of a fridge (which i have no room for) is being able to set both the temp and pressure for the target condition you want, for the £10 a controller such as the stc1000 costs it more than pays for itself in the convenience it provides..

Also a fan inside the fridge to move the air inside around will aid in its efficiency no end, there is a reason you will find fans inside all top end fridges.. a pc fan run of an old phone charger is what i use in my fermenting fridge..

 

[Phenz]

okay, ordered.

now i just have to find a site that explains how to install it. i'm pretty handy so shouldn't be too tricky, from what i've heard. just need to try and locate the specifics for my fridge, i'm sure there is a video somewhere explaining the whole process.

now i just have to wait for everything to arrive...

 

[ManseMasher]

okay, ordered.

now i just have to find a site that explains how to install it. i'm pretty handy so shouldn't be too tricky, from what i've heard. just need to try and locate the specifics for my fridge, i'm sure there is a video somewhere explaining the whole process.

now i just have to wait for everything to arrive...

http://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=52394

Hope that helps!

 

[Phenz]

thanks. I thought initially that i had to wire it into the fridge circuitry, which is by no means impossible, but creating an external device which fully switches the fridge on or off seems like the best way to go when considering upgrade potential.

picked my stc1000 up from the post office today and now i'm wandering around the house looking for old tech to strip for parts.

going to google and see if something cheap and creative comes up.

 

[Phenz]

i've got my keg, reg, co2 and some fittings, but still waiting on my lines and my corny connectors.

individual components to build the stc1000 enclosure are really expensive! if you want to do it properly, i was pricing it up in maplin, then homebase. couldn't justify it.

So i went to pound land and spent £3 to create my splash proof, neat little set-up that can sit inconspicuously anywhere!

got 2x 3 way power cables and one tiny tool box.

and cut the flex off an old washing machine i have in the garage.







tested it and it works.

stole this guys idea... [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30TvX1Zz1-Y[/ame]

when i upgrade i think i might turn my mini kegerator fridge into a fermentor.

i've also had time to design my logo, going to acid etch it onto my bottles and some glasses... my surname is knight and i'm doing this on my own. with a lot of help from the internet.



i've had a lot of time to kill whilst shopping and waiting for things to arrive.

...hope my beer tastes good.

 

[Fil]

there is a brewfridge upgrade for the stc1000, https://github.com/matsstaff/stc1000p

if you dont have a v1.0 stc1000 shout and i will dig out a link to the original developers thread on a US brew forum where other stc1000 version upgrades are discussed..

Im currently working on a Rf/arduino logger which can pick up via 433mhz Rf the stc1000+ current temp for logging onto an sd card with a datetime stamp

 

[Phenz]

that seems awufully complicated, i wouldn't know where to start. i've looked into audrino and rasp pi before, but its just completely over my head. i'm kinda savvy when it comes to running a computer, but i know nothing about programming and interfacing.

on another note, i've found this;

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5-Way-Adj...3fa7e&pid=100338&rk=13&rkt=30&sd=171824580506

its for air rather than co2 but is the principal the same?

it looks too good to be true so i thought i'd beter ask here for some expert advice on whether it would work or not...

£6 for a 5 way splitter...