Rules on free bar social club

[Hudson1984]

Hi all,

so time for me has stopped my brewing journey....but not my enjoyment of brewed produce

I've been trying to support the local, and have organised regular bar trips for a few mates - all seem to have gotten used to lockdown lifestyle and everyone seems really keen to socialise a bit more than has been the norm.

This being said, alot of my locals are complete dives. Some are ok, but alot are pretty poor.

Now I currently rent a small office for work, and have been looking to expand and move into a bigger place.

If, I had a spare room in this premises, what's the legal standpoint of me using it as a bar of sorts. This wouldn't be revenue earning, more a place to socialise, have a beer of 6, play pool, play darts and all that jazz.

I'd be keen to install something similar to a porta pint - so if me a couple of other wanted to club together, we could get a keg or two. But generally, for social nights, just have people bring drink

Essentially, it's the same as any home bar - just not at home.

 

[Stan's Brew]

Speakeasy rules apply - 'The operator of an establishment (such as a saloon or bar) would charge customers to see an attraction (such as an animal) and then serve a "complimentary" alcoholic beverage, thus circumventing the law.'

 

[Hazelwood Brewery]

Speakeasy rules apply - 'The operator of an establishment (such as a saloon or bar) would charge customers to see an attraction (such as an animal) and then serve a "complimentary" alcoholic beverage, thus circumventing the law.'

In the UK this would be illegal, no question, and could earn you unlimited fines and up to six months in prison. For this to even stand a chance of being legal you would have to offer a free drink to people that had not paid to see the animal.

I believe the law requires that any beer you brew is brewed on your premises and drunk on your premises for your personal use. Now we all share our beer with friends, take a few beers to a party or homebrew club, and send beer to competitions and bottle-swaps so strictly we are breaking the law. HMRC don’t take any particular interest in this but they sit up like a meercat if money changes hands in any guise or if your setup smells like an attempt to avoid licensing and paying tax. If half a dozen of you each took 3 or 4 pints to your man-shed to socialise on a weekend I’m sure you’d be just fine. If people contribute/donate anything (goods, services, money) or you start taking kegs and setup a bar that’s maybe open most nights rather than once a week and frequented by a dozen drinkers you may just be starting to produce smoke

Do the sniff test - is this unquestionably just 2 or 3 friends getting together or might there be something more going on here?

 

[Chippy_Tea]

I believe the law requires that any beer you brew is brewed on your premises and drunk on your premises for your personal use

Spot on HB and it's been discussed here many times as you say a blind eye is turned to a few friends swapping beers or having a BBQ now and again but if it become a regular event or money was changing hands it would be viewed a lot differently.

 

[Stan's Brew]

but they sit up like a meercat if money changes hands in any guise

 

[Stan's Brew]

I have a similar question - ignoring the fact that bottles of beer would probably swiftly go missing if left out on show What rules apply to free produce or swaps from the front of a home, a great many people have donation boxes in exchange for homegrown fruit and veg, honey etc. I get that HMRC would do a meercat if there was a donation box for beer, but if the beer was given away freely and people just happened to leave honey, bacon, tomatoes etc as a form of exchange?

And another related, but slightly different question, what are the rules related to barter? Can you swap a crate of beer for half a pig or a sack of grain or flour, potatoes etc, without tax implications?

Or is it just the case that HMRC are not interested in the odd swap here and there, but anything regular would get their necks stretching?

 

[The Baron]

Beer can only be brewed for your own consumption at home are the rules so in real terms you should not even give beer free to anybody else but they do turn a blind eye to letting friends consume it on your premises

 

[Jim Brewster]

Probably best to just look at it as a social club to play pool, darts, cards, chat etc.
If within those rules people are allowed to bring with them their own food and drinks and consume them on the premises, then it would seem to be OK?

Potential minefield when the mention of alcohol and money are involved. You could probably do it and it never be an isuse, but if anything ever happened it could be a big deal.
Also need to verify if it's allowed within the terms of the use of the building as a work office to hold social gatherings there.

 

[Hazelwood Brewery]

I have a similar question - ignoring the fact that bottles of beer would probably swiftly go missing if left out on show What rules apply to free produce or swaps from the front of a home, a great many people have donation boxes in exchange for homegrown fruit and veg, honey etc. I get that HMRC would do a meercat if there was a donation box for beer, but if the beer was given away freely and people just happened to leave honey, bacon, tomatoes etc as a form of exchange?

And another related, but slightly different question, what are the rules related to barter? Can you swap a crate of beer for half a pig or a sack of grain or flour, potatoes etc, without tax implications?

Or is it just the case that HMRC are not interested in the odd swap here and there, but anything regular would get their necks stretching?

These are all easy questions and it’s the same reasoning as giving away beer to people that pay to see the animal.

The beer has a value that you’re exchanging for something else with a value. The fact that this value is represented by half a pig is no different to it being represented by money. I don’t know whether HMRC would accept a share of the pig but it’s generally best not to poke the sleeping bear with a stick.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

My take on the home brew and HMRC.

This forum can be viewed by anyone without registering if HMRC was bothered about people giving the odd bottle of their brews to others (which is against the rules) they would be down on us like a ton of bricks, bottle swaps and secret Santas are openly discussed and have been for many years yet there hasn't as far as i know ever been any contact from HMRC to THBF Admin or any member, i think that sums up their interest in home brew.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

The bottom line for me.

If you have a few mates round a couple of times a week and have a few beers and a game of darts in the man cave no one is going to bother.

If you have mates round every other day and they get hammered make loads of noise and upset your neighbours who know it's your home brew they are drinking its going to end in the police/council getting involved and that may not end well.

If you’re having a problem with noise like loud music, noisy pubs, rowdy parties or barking dogs in your neighbourhood, your council can help you

 

[Sadfield]

What the OP proposes is perfectly legitimate.

Clubbing together to buy kegs of beer to drink. Duty is paid, and no further transaction are made for drinks. The location is irrelevant. Its no different to a group all chipping in for a slab of cans from a supermarket and drinking them in a park.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

DOH. I read it as him wanting to give his home brew away in a converted office, If its just a case of buying a keg or two of beer and a means of dispensing it he may be OK are there any rules about using a business premesis?

 

[Jon1961]

What the OP proposes is perfectly legitimate.
Clubbing together to buy kegs of beer to drink. Duty is paid, and no further transaction are made for drinks. The location is irrelevant. Its no different to a group all chipping in for a slab of cans from a supermarket and drinking them in a park.

You have hit the nail on the head. The issue here with HMRC is duty paid (or not) on alcohol. With supermarket booze, duty has been paid. With home brew, duty has not.

 

[Sadfield]

With regards to homebrew, one needs to think in terms of tax avoidance. Outside of the brewers own property, anything given or exchanged with anyone, opens up the argument from HMRC that both beer duty and VAT are avoided by not buying the equivalent from a Duty and VAT registered supplier.

 

[StJayJay]

I’m not sure about the tax implications, I would have thought the more pressing issues would be around licensing and planning. The local authority may take a view that it is licensable activity as alcohol is being supplied. Whether you charge for alcohol or not, it’s supply requires a license. Private members clubs have different licensing requirements to fully licensed premises but still require a license.
With this being commercial property, there’s also local planning considerations and specific planning is usually needed in a commercial premises where alcohol will be supplied (in addition to licensing), so a typical office may need to apply for change of usage if food and drink is supplied for example. These sort of things are total cash cows for the local authorities and can be over zealous in pursuing perceived infringements so there is the risk a of double whammy planning and licensing fines.
There’s also often conditions in leases which stipulate what you can and can’t use the space for.

 

[Hudson1984]

yeah sorry all, this wasn't a homebrew question, more a question of socialising in office space and drinking with friends. It certainly would not be a commercial enterprise, just a place for mates to hang out and have a beer (bought through commercial channels) I mean, if I went all out, I'd say to be a "member" of said social club, we all stick a fiver in a pot, and buy a keg or 2 once a month and consume it. But again, it wouldn't be "sold" per say, just a group of people getting together in a communal space.

Essentially, the office I'm looking at has a 7m x 6m room which I have no practical use for. It would be a spare room. So I though I could stick a pool table in there, a small bar setup and some chairs, a Dart board etc and just have a good space to hang out when people are available.

The rest of the office would be for work of course.

 

[Tanglefoot]

Not sure I'd get much work done if that were me - you sound like a good boss !

 

[Jim Brewster]

Does it class as supplying if people bring their own? I know there are restaurants that don't serve alcohol but allow you to bring your own, I presume this is because they don't have a license.

 

[Sadfield]

It's a bit chicken and egg. BYOB restaurants don't need a license as they aren't supplying alcohol.